Tubes Do It -- Transistors Don't.

Detlof, I don't know why you think that vinyl-tube playback sometimes is closer to live music, anymore than you know why I think that CD-SS playback is closer to live music, if well recorded. I do know that ticks, pops and limited dynamics do not make me think that I am closer to live music, but coughs and whispering might!
I do believe that a poor recording played back on a Vinyl system will sound better than the same poor recording played back on CD system, possibly because the vinyl system adds or replaces the element missing in the recording (creates phase distortion or changes the frequency response).
The explaination lies more in the recording than in the playback system.

Salut, Bob P.

PS. My vinyl playback system consists of Oracle Alexandria MK IV, with RB300 and BPS. I still use my PAS 3x and ST 70 in my second system.

Bob, I spoke of tubes distorting, not necessarily of a vinyl-tube playback event, but then, come to think of it, I DO think and experience almost daily, that with the right TT, arm and cartridge, and with an LP properly treated, you will more often than not have neither tics, pops or limited dynamics and will thus come closer to live music, than anything else including SACD. Of course many LPs do have, what you mention, but with a well set up vinyl frontend, the noise is somehow transported to another plain, beyond the music. It has to be experienced to be believed. Besides, I find the "black silence" of CDs completely unnatural and dislike it immensely. We all have our preferences. Cheers,

If ANYONE on this board REALLY thinks that I, or other tube aficionados here, are buying tube systems to get a certain type of "even order distortion" or euphonic sound out of this gear, then they are totally deluding themselves. This notion that the purpose of tube gear is to introduce some kind of "likable" distortion, is ludicrous. I cannot even believe that I am hearing that kind of stuff from people who are supposed to be knowledgable about audio. Do you really think so poorly of your fellow audiophiles to believe that they would spend large sums of money to "distortion-ize" their systems? Do you think that they have no idea what good sound is? I can understand that some people in the SS camp like the sound of their SS amps, and that is fine. Good SS amps can do some things very well. And good tube amps do some things very well also. Nothing does everything perfectly. So all of us have preferences. But the idea that some audiophiles think that the "tube guys" are purposely distorting their systems is outrageous. I find this very disturbing.

Now, I am the first to point out that all things have deficiencies and will try hard to promote my ideas of what better sound can be. But, I have never promoted the notion that people who use digital sources or high power SS amps, are doing it because they like to reduce the sound quality of their systems.

Just think what people would say to me, if I stated that they use CD players because they like the "synthetic,lifeless sound". Or they use SS amps because they prefer the grainy, sandy distortion that only SS can provide, with the euphonic odd-order distortion. Or that using some SS preamp with a tube amp can add just the right amount of "sand" that we love so much.

This is unbelievable. Why do you do this? Is it a lack of understanding that tube systems can provide very good lifelike sound? Have you been brainwashed by the audio writers that spew out this garbage? Do you believe that spec sheets tell all about tube amps, but tell nothing about SS amps? Just what is the purpose in all this?

I love tube amps and I promote their use. But you will never find one post by me on this forum that actually denigrated an SS amp in a correct application. And I have never stated that the owners of SS amps are enthralled by some kind of distortion in their systems that is inherent to SS designs.

Now we have people actually posting on these threads that if they just put a couple of tubes in the system, then that is enough to give the "even order distortion" that they want. Incredible! What is this world coming to?

I love the distortion I get with my SS amp. I went through several SS amps before I got just the right distortion. I would buy tubes if I could get the compressed lifeless sound they have before breaking-in and the dulled sound when they are on the way out. Unfortunately there is that inbetween thing when they lack the distortion and lifelessness. Damn that period!!!
To go with the distortion of my SS amp I love the lifeless sound of redbook CDs. It is amazing some idiot in a lab could come up with this retched sounding medium and get someone in management to go along with this. Where would I be without this crap. I'd have to listen to good music.
I'm only being a little sarcastic.

Detlof, I agree with Clueless that CDs omit information which analog preserves, but I wonder about your take on interstitial silence - LP playback does contribute a certain minimum noise floor which is much higher than digital (or a master tape). Is it your feeling that you would less enjoy LPs if they sounded the same, except for displaying a similarly "black" lack of background noise as CDs? Do you need this noise to in effect "bias" your ears, or would the more info-rich analog medium be even better if this noise could somehow be removed while maintaining the rest? I have found that the masking effect can be a funny thing: you don't consciously realize when it's going on, but you do as soon as the previously masked noise is removed from the source, system, or listening environment. Shouldn't the ambient background noise captured by the microphones ideally be the only noise floor transmitted or imposed in a hypothetically perfect recording/playback chain?

To me, the tube analogy here is with low-level high-gain tube stages, mainly in the preamp and/or phonostage. I have now configured my own system to the polar opposite of the more conventional tube front-end/SS power amplification scenario mentioned several times above. From having a pure-tube amplification chain (was all C-J), I have gone to an SS phonostage (the op-amp based Camelot Tech Lancelot) and preamplification (the FET based InnerSound), while retaining all-tube power amplification (VTL MB-185 Sig's). Yes, I do find that the lowered noise floor renders my LPs with a little more of the "blackness" of digital, and I consider it a good thing. (BTW, although my digital rig doesn't feature this, I might not be opposed to considering a tube buffered output stage for the CD source, if it isn't a high-gain stage.) This set-up represents a quite recent change in my system along with a new listening room (which is quieter than the old one), and I am still evaluating what, if anything, I will have lost if I choose to remain without tube preamplification. But I'll tell you one thing I do not miss, the constantly encroaching paranioia caused by all the spurious "contributions" courtesy of them cute li'l fire-bottles.