A tubes vs. Solid State question.

It surprises me that at this late date, this debate can still go on.

I remember in an analog/digital debate years ago someone mentioning warped records as a reason to throw out all analog forever. It was a sideline comment- obviously just because a few records are warped does not mean that all of them are. We face a similar issue in this debate as well.

IOW this begs the question: 'Have you heard the very best tube amplifier compared to the very best transistor amplifier?"

Once we get to this point all bets are off. The correct answer to the above question for everyone here is: 'No.'

First, one would have to determine what is the best tube amplifier and also the best transistor amplifier in order to effect the comparison to begin with. That will take a few years at the rate we are going. I know our amplifiers are the best available at any price, and having heard the best transistor amps (mentioned in this thread at least) its obvious that they have a ways to go before that can beat what we make.

Of course I am sure that there are those who disagree! But they've not heard our latest efforts either...

I think you will find that any designer worth his salt is convinced that their way is the best. Most designers I know are *extremely* dedicated and do this out of passion and the desire to make the best, rather than money, and that is how it should be.

When the product gets marketed, the ad says its the best, as will the dealer- they can't all be best! This has been going on for 40 years... So the only real way to know what is the best is to take it home and play it. Obviously it might work for you, but the simple fact of the matter is no-one has the resources to actually find out which the best is- and this is essential if we are to determine which is better- tube or transistor.

In the meantime this. Is. All. Opinion :)

Absolutely. Atmasphere said it right. I won't use a transistor, but that doesn't make my way right. It just makes me happy.
I just hope everyone out there can find the gear that gives them goosebumps and makes them forget about the gear and just drown in the music.

Cheers.

Mr Atmasphere, I agree with most of what you said, but even that is meaningless since I will never know as much about amplifier design as you.

When I posted this thread it was in response to comments made by a few people who seemed to think that anyone who did not own tube gear were either deaf or stupid. Some seem to think that the difference is so immense that anyone who hears tubes will never go back to SS. I don't even know what odd order and even order harmonics are, but I have heard a number of SS amps that I liked very much.

This is not an attack on AtmaSphere since they are one of the few companies whose gear I am currently interested in buying. Unfortunately my amplifier is not a weak link, so it will be a while before I look seriously at amps.

I have heard SS gear that sounds good and tube gear that did not sound good. Good sound is not mutually exclusive to either design.

But I can't help but wonder why the human ear would evolve a dislike for odd ordered harmonics? And why would all of them have followed the same evolutionary course?

Since there is no best tube amplifier and best transistor amplifier, they can no more be compared than evolution can face scientific scrutiny.

Hi Nrchy, even ordered harmonics are harmonics where the fundamental frequency has been multiplied by an even number, 2,4 and the like. 'Times 2' yields the '2nd harmonic' and so on.

Odd orders are fundamentals multiplied by odd numbers, 3,5 and so on.

This is probably more than you expected to hear from me about this :) but:

There is something extremely interesting about harmonic distortion, that no person can escape: the ear/brain system evolved to use odd-ordered harmonics as a loudness cue, as it is a very efficient means to analyze loudness without having to use all the cognitive facilities.

If you think about it, before (and after, FWIW) the beginning of civilization, quite often loud sounds were associated with extreme danger, thus the detection of how *loud* these sounds are is quite important and might need to be acted on immediately (as in 'fight or flight' behaviour). IOW the response to odd ordered harmonics can connect directly to the amygdala, the so-called 'reptilian' or 'lower' brain.

If you ever wondered how music and its reproduction can invoke an emotional response you need look no further!

What we can conclude from this is that odd-ordered harmonics at the very least induce stress, and indeed, tests GE performed in the 1960s showed that humans are quite intolerent of vanishingly small amounts of odd-ordered harmonic content.

So in simple terms tube amplifiers in good condition will be less stressful to listen to, as in general, they produce less odd-ordered distortion. Because the cerebral cortex can overcome messages from the lower brain, it is possible to still enjoy a transistor amplifier, but it will always been seen that a properly operating tube amplifier will be less stressful.

Reduction of this type of distortion was thus a paramount design goal with the Atma-Sphere lineup, as I was interested in getting the equipment to conform as closely as possible to the rules used by the ear/brain system. You might say this is a more 'organic' approach, and some designers feel that it is better to conform to the rules of linearity instead. I feel that in doing so this allows for small amounts of odd ordered harmonic continue to be ignored.

We are a long way from using all the ear/brain rules in audio reproduction. Just for example, we use linear recording and playback systems, yet the ear/brain system is logarithmic. It will be a while before anyone attempts that!

The explanation about odd-harmonics being perceived as bad by humans is probably a lot simpler than Atmasphere's explanation. In the beginning, before electronics, the only harmonics that anything (except bagpipes, of course)could produce were even harmonics of its root vibration because that is the nature of vibrating bodies and sound and the nature of human hearing.
Old mechanical alarm clocks had to sound much more loudly than present electronic alarm clocks, because the old clocks produced a base tone with even harmonics due to its inherent vibrating nature, therefore the sound being more pleasing, while electronic alarm clocks produce (purposely) a base tone with odd harmonics (or dissonant chords), therefore the sound being more annoying, thus not needing to be as loud.
Salut, Bob P.