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High value, high efficiency speakers for SET amps

Hi, Gang,
I know that some of what I want to discuss here has been dealt with in other threads, some of them quite old, but I wanted to see if any of you fine, knowledgable folks are willing to help update and consolidate some of this info in a more current thread.
I am currently running my new Audio Note Kit 1 300B SET amp with a pair of Reference 3A De Capo speakers. I think it's a fine pairing and I am really enjoying what the 300B SET experience brings to the table in terms of musicality and emotional connection.
Still the De Capo, while supposedly an easy load due to its crossover-less design (only 1 cap on the tweeter with the mid-woofer directly coupled to the amp), is "only" rated at 92 db efficient, and based on the most recent Canadian NRC specs, that rating may be optimistic.
So, I am toying with the idea of trying a pair of more efficient, deliberately SET-friendly speakers in my rig, something that might also play lower and with greater dynamic swing than the De Capo's. Note that the De Capo's have served me well and I am very fond of them, but I can't help but wonder if my lovely Kit 1 would shine even better coupled to a VERY easy to drive speaker.
Devore and Audio Note are obvious options - the O/96 looks really tasty. Unfortunately, both of those choices are out of my budget, which I'm thinking maxes out (for real) at around $1500. I am willing to consider used equipment.
Tekton Lore 2.0: This is the speaker that Eric Alexander of Tekton has recommended when we've spoken on the phone, based upon my medium-small listening room and amp. I've read the epic "Lore vs. Zu" thread elsewhere in this forum, and clearly Tekton has its enthusiastic fans here. What I wonder is whether the Lore 2.0 has the refinement of the De Capo in terms of resolution, sweet high end and imaging. Audiogon'er Mikirob has pointed me to the many rave reviews of Tekton's speakers and I'm definitely interested.
I've corresponded with the Sonist folks (who are super nice) but their really high-efficiency, nearly-full-range floor stander is out of my budget.
Then there's the "vintage" route, going after some used JBL's or other high-efficiency "classics" from the 80's (or '70's). I am not inclined to go in this direction, but mention it because it's been suggested to me.
And then there's Omega. I spoke to Louis some time ago and he recommended his 7XRS hemp cone model. But I know all the raps on single driver designs and I'm cautious, although I would like to hear from any of you who own or have owned Omega's.
I'm in no rush to make a switch but I am very interested in your thoughts. Thanks, folks!
rebbi
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,336 posts
 
Hi Reb.

I've downsized my second system to a 60 watt/ch Class D integrated (Bel Canto C5i) so if any new speakers on my horizon, tehy may well need to be more efficient as well. So far I'm liking the combo with the OHM 100s. Eventually I will try with my Triangles and Dynaudios just for fun.

The DeCapos would be a nice upgrade over my Triangles off my main rig still, but they are holding their own for now plus my audio budget is shot. I am looking to downsize and sell not buy these days. In addition to the STAX, I am also plannign to sell my TAD Hibachi monoblocks and mhdt Paradisea tube DAC.

I am a bit of a Klutsz so surely I would be the one to drop the Frankensteins. Charles would surely never forgive me for that one.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,859 posts
 
The is no single type of amplifier that is the best for all genres of music, I don't care what amplifier it is, there's inevitable compromise somewhere.

Charlesdad, while I appreciate many of your posts and your primary tenant (paraphrasing: 'get the system that sounds right to you and enjoy it'), the above quote is simply incorrect. Electronics don't care what signal you give them and can't express taste. If the amp is excellent for classical it will be excellent for rock, because it is excellent.

I trust Ralph of Atmasphere when he states that distortion rises quickly with these amps before they reach peak power, but I can tell you that that is not the case with my speakers. I, like Charles, choose to listen at moderate levels, but when I am off and around the house in different rooms, I will turn it up to levels that are pretty loud by any standard, and it still sounds great, without a sign of strain.

102 db is the kind of efficiency that is needed to work with many SETs. I suspect though that the Klipsch are really 99 db (which is still helpful) due to the difference between efficiency and sensitivity; unless I am mistaken I would expect that they are 4 ohms in the bass region despite the '8 ohm nominal' impedance claim.

'Strain' BTW has nothing to do with what I was talking about in my prior posts. If you have ever wondered why SETs are so dynamic, especially considering their low power, the reason has to do with how they make distortion without clipping. As you get over 20-25% of full power, the higher ordered harmonics start to show up. Its important to understand that the ear uses these harmonics as loudness cues, so their presence will make reproduced sound seem louder than it really is. At the volume is increased, these harmonics show up on transients (where the power is) so essentially the loudness cues that the ear detects will be more prominent on the musical peaks. This gives the amp a very 'dynamic' quality.

However what is really happening is more distortion is present for brief periods. Actually in about 95% of audiophile conversations, the word 'dynamic' or dynamics' can be safely substituted for the word 'distortion' without altering the meaning of the conversation at all.

I may have ruined it for some as the awareness that distortion is driving this phenomena may mean that you become more aware of it.
mikirob
955 posts
 
Tubegroover, Others,
The DeCapos are my brother 2nd system, usually paired with Leben CS600. Admittedly, in his system everything is fine, except the lower bass realm, yet does not best the Tekton with said Leben. The DeCapo Ref is a very nice speaker, I have said so here many times. I personally like the tone and presentation better with the Tekton. My brother's primary speaker is the Harbeth SHL5 also very good. Another thing to note as previously mentioned here is that between my brother and I, we often enough have audio shootouts at our houses with usually 6 to 10 audio buddies, their systems are all over the map. Between my brother and I we have owned or listened to many, many serious systems. Not as reviewers, but music lovers...I've even shopped at one of the stores Mapman worked at back in the 70s.

With regard to "limitations" all audio equipment/amps have limitations and must be matched synergistically with appropriate ancillaries. Monitors have limitations, usually a a lot missing below say, 55hz; Ribbons have limitations and usually require amps with over a 100 watts and high current; Electrostatics present other problems; many speakers have a Head In The Vice sweet spot; some speakers are difficult to set-up; and so on and so forth. A SET is no more problematic than anything else. Historically low-powered amps with gigantic horns filled large movie theaters with loud dynamic sound. I would argue that just because an amp is powerful does not make it a good match for many speakers, sure they'll play loud, likely dynamic; but what of the quality of sound?

Too me, like Charles, Brownsfan, Roxy, many non Westener listeners such as the Japanese, we seem to be Timbral listeners and have very specific musical requirement as outlined above where I pasted Jeff Day's blog on "Listening Bias". As a former professional musician I care for the above musical attributes. Directly heated SET matched with appropriate high efficiency speakers does it for me and I suspect legions of others. I also think speaker manufacturing took a wrong turn with 4 ohm based solely on financial considerations. I strongly believe we would all be better served with efficient, easy to drive speakers, perhaps, some rare exceptions.
mikirob
955 posts
 
So, Atmasphere,
Then why don't we have manufacting that promotes high efficiency nominal 8 ohm or higher speakers. Seems like it makes amp manufacting funnel into a narrow "limiting" high power proposition that does Limit and force a specific choice that doesn't often times serve music by my definition, but does loud/dynamic. As a maker of a fine amp, don't you realize many benefits with more efficient speakers in the manufacturing process.
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
I'd imagine that the vast majority of SET owners had a variety of different amplifiers prior to discovering SETs, this is true in my case. At some point with experience under our belt we realize what sounds preferable to us individually. To state the obvious, these choices/tastes will vary. I can only speak of my own listening encounters. I've found SETs as a group sound better and closer to what I seek. That's it.

Tubegroover, Ralph and others,I understand that you are drawn to something else and move in a different direction. This is as it should be, I chose what moved me the most in terms of music enjoyment and involvement. I really don't understand what the dispute is, if SET doesn't float your boat then find what does (there's plenty of options).

Ralph I stand by my statement that there is no perfect amplifier, some will excel in some sonic areas and be less than ideal in another. We choose the tradeoffs we can live with.

Mapman, I don't get your "sugar coating" comment, sugar coating what? Every SET owner who has participated in this thread has been clear and open concerning proper amp/speaker matching. Their comments simply support and express the satisfaction they have found going the SET route. How is this perceived as sugar coating? Is Rebbi strongly preferring the AN Kit1 SET over his former Manley or Bel Canto an example of sugar coating?
Charles,
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