I'm confused


I like to spend time on Audiogon to educate myself. However, the more I educate myself, the more confuse I get. That shows how novel I am.

Here is my case. I have 7 power-hungry speakers with handling power from 50-250watt. Due to small room size (12'X13'), my current HT set up 5.1 Thinking 90wpc is sufficient, I received a free used Denon 2802 as a gift. My AVR got clip once when I was watching Tears From the Sun too loud. I learned that b/c 90wpc was not continuously power driven, the true wpc could get reduced substantially. So here are my options below.

1) Get 7-channel amp (100 - 200wpc) to go w/ current Denon AVR. Cons: some body said that I am better off saving my $ by using the amp from current AVR since multichannel amp is not any better. Is this true?

2) Use my current AVR or upgrade to better, more powerful one since multi-channel does not add much value to the quality of sound compared to the amount of money added. Cons: Sound quality?

3) Get 2-channel amp to drive main speakers during stereo mode. Get additional 3-channel amp to drive center and side rear speakers. In the future, get additional 2 channel to complete the 7.1 setup. Cons: really limited space, really excessive generated heat, and really expensive.

4) Go separate like the Outlaw combo -- 7X200wpc amp and a separate preamp/processor for ~ $2400. Cons: entry preamp/processor won't make a difference compared to other higher-end preamp/proc? Moreover, I can get a better quality pre-own combo for less amount of money, and if so DOES THE WPC ON PREAMP/PROC HAVE TO MATCH W/ WPC ON MULTI-CHANNEL AMP?

Even though the info provided is very limited, if you were me, which option would you pick and explain why you pick such option or eliminate others. I'm new to this, so I'm all ears. Each response got my full, undivided attention.
lej1447
Please take my remark "Pick another hobby," with a large pile of salt.

Really what I meant is some people are perfectly fine with most any given gear(they are not reading this...) and, myself at least, find the limits of my gear and try to learn why the gear has limits/causes of such limits and how to increase such limits.

To follow this tricky road leads to one end point, a new piece of equiment. Equiment cost money, sometimes a great deal of money. The best I can do is to try and spend my money wisely.

I knew your thread was coming, things not sounding good. Please try the "flat" settings for a week. The human ear/mind has a great ability to adjust. The settings you had were "correct". Right now you are use to listening to a majorly inflated/hyped up soundstage.

" The left main speaker popped twice quickly during the heavy bass"

I have been meaning to say something about clipping. Clipping is way, way bad. This is how equiment dies.

Best of Luck,

Marty
Interesting results Lej1447! I have a few questions regarding the test you conducted.

You said after setting the 8.3s to small you adjusted the crossover higher on BOTH the Denon and Polk PSW350.

When setting your speakers to small and allowing the Denon to perform all the bass management, you should BYPASS the crossover in your powered sub by going "direct in" otherwise you'll have a phenomena known as "cascading filters", which is two crossovers one after the other performing the same task near the same crossover point. This should be avoided because it can hamper the performance of the subwoofer and cause strange dips or humps near that area.

One way to avoid this is to either use the "direct in" jack on the powered sub which in most cases completely bypasses its low pass filter, thus allowing the Denon to handle all the bass management with only one low pass filter in the mix. I noticed that the PSW350 has three inputs. Speaker level, LFE and line level. In your case you should be using LFE because your intended use is for movies. I don't know however if this input bypasses Polk's crossover.

If the LFE input doesn't bypass the subs crossover, then crank it as high as it will go so the Denon's and Polk's filters aren't close enough to affect each other. An example would be setting the Denon's crossover to 80Hz and turning the Polk's all the way up to its 160Hz max setting. You'll still have cascading filters, but this configuration wouldn't be as bad as if they were near the same crossover point. When I was using the NHT SA-3 amp/crossover which is intended for use with my NHT SW3P passive subwoofer, this is exactly what I did since the SA-3 doesn't have a direct in jack. Now that I'm using a Bryston 4B instead of the SA-3, I go directly from the amp to the sub without any filters in the path.

Also, you said you turned the crossover on your Denon up. To what frequency setting? If I had your system I would experiment with LFE settings on your Denon starting in the 80Hz range [if adjustable], this will aleviate much of the bass duty your ARs are enduring while retaining the qualities you like. I don't know if it's the same for your unit, but I see that the AVR-2803 has switchable low pass settings of 40, 60, 80, 100, and 120Hz. If you had set your Denon to 120Hz when you did your test, this could explain why Ian McKellan sounded like a little girl. No, not the OTHER reason, heheh! And, if your Denon was set to this while the Polk had a slightly lower setting these two things in combination could cause a "hole" or "suck out" at that frequency, thus the lack of warmth which is usually attributed to an upper bass hump. Also, try the 60Hz setting and see how that works.

Check all these issues pertaining to your LFE settings, because something as simple as this could be at the root of your dilemna.

In the end, it may just be your Denon. After all, its 90wpc rating is probably a bit optimistic and not an indication of its actual ability to supply dynamic power and high current on demanding movie tracks. It's like my old Integra GSR which had a high horsepower rating and could rev like a demon, but was dog at low RPMs because it had no low end torque at all.

Another thing that might complicate your situation as well is speaker AND subwoofer placement. If you haven't taken a lot of care in placement and set up, search on line for some guides for HT speaker placement. You'd be surprised how vital proper placement of all speakers and especially the subwoofer is to achieving a great movie experience. Yes, subwoofer placement is crucial and in my opinion the most difficult speaker to position.

Sean, quite frankly I'm stunned that you SAY you hadn't thought of the "small" setting for Lej1447's 8.3s. Over the years, I have enjoyed and learned immeasurably from your posts pertaining to 2 channel audiophilia. I'm very honored by you compliment!

Lej1447, if you think setting up a home theater is CONFUSING, don't ever take the step to 2 channel listening. I find this arena to be far more complex with endless upgrade paths and limitless permutations in search of musical bliss. But the rewards can be magic!

Keep at it!
Gunbei: My HT system consists of "large" speakers i.e. the mains have dual 12's and an 8", the center has dual 8's in a large box, the rears have two 10's and an 8", etc... As such, i've not had to tinker with various settings. With that in mind, the simple but elegant solution that you arrived at was initially out of my scope. That is, i never use those controls so i never thought about them. : )

Your suggestion to Lej regarding filter settings is right on the money. Hopefully he'll try that and be able to obtain a happy medium between fullness of sound and the SPL's that he desires. Sean
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Hey Marty, I wish 2 channels was easier, hahah! I'm finding it to be way more expensive as well!

Sean, your discussions always seemed to center around 2 channel and I never considered you might have an HT system. What kind of gear are you running? Your main speakers with built -in 8s and 12s is exactly the example of speakers that I was searching for that should be set to large. I use little NHT SuperOnes and SuperZeros, so setting them to small is optimal, but I have experimented with setting them to large just for fun.

It's interesting that your center channel has two 8s and that your rears have 8s and 10s. I've read about many systems including magazine reviewer's own systems that employ subs to operate in tandem with all their speakers EXCEPT the center channel. And I'm not just talking about multiple LFE subs, but one integrated with each speaker via its own crossover network. I've read explanations on why the center channel is excluded from this, but never truly understood why. Your system seems to mirror this philosophy in a way except that the "subs" are built into each cabinet, except the center channel. I hope this is another area you can help enlighten me, hahah.