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ARC vs Atma-Sphere and ARC vs VTL Amplifiers

(Sorry in advance for the long post.)

While I'm particularly interested in the Atma-Sphere MA-1 and the VTL MB-450, I'm interested in learning what sonics users have experienced from the tube amps of all three of these manufacturers. I am most familiar with Audio Research Corp's products so they provide a good reference point for me. I think ARC has made some great amps, so if something is really compettive with their products or better than their products, that would be impressive.

I realize that the models don't all sound the same within a manufacturer's line as designs can change between models and over time. For example, ARC has ebbed and flowed and evolved over the years; their current amps with JFETs seem to elicit somewhat different user comments than their earlier all tube models. And of course the speaker load can make a difference.

Having said all that, I'm very interested in what differences Audiogon users have heard in direct A-B comparisons of ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere, and if possible, it would be very helpful to know which amp models and which speakers were heard in the direct A-B, or which amps with what speakers were the basis of the comments if the comments weren't the result of a direct A-B.

While it is valuable to hear a reviewer's qualitative descriptions (more air, more low end extension, etc.) it's also helpful to know how much more or less of these things were heard - just a smigdeon, a noticeable amount, a day and night difference, etc. Generally, I think most Agoners would rather save some $ than just a get a barely discernible upgrade; but if something really takes a system to another level, then sometimes it might be worth spending some $; at that point, it becomes a matter of how many more $, but presumably at least there's a notable difference to be had. (I realize everything can be relative from one user's perspective to another's, but the idea would be to describe both the differences in sound quality and the amount or size of the differences.)

If any Agoners have any comments along these lines regarding ARC vs VTL and ARC vs Atmasphere it would really be most appreciated. It is difficult to find local demos so the ability to get a user's first hand experience "here" (on Audiogon) is the next best thing to "hearing" (the real thing). If nothing else, it helps home-in on the finalists and then maybe it would be worth traveling somehwere to check out finalists first hand.

Thanks very much to all the Agoners who make this such a great forum.
hi_hifi
hi_hifi OP
120 posts
 
Brian, thanks for the reply; it's always good to get both info and encouragement :).

I've read your paragraph below several times, but I'm not sure if I understand it fully.

- Are you saying that the M-3s will or will not have sufficient bass in a 18x12 room?

"First of all, hats off to you on an excellent choice of speakers! (grains of salt all around) In your room either speaker would work. M-2s are easier to drive than M-3s, and it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s. One person I know has Auras (which use similar size panels as M-3s) supplemented by a subwoofer in a room about the size of yours, although a pair of Sound Lab U-2s (same size panels) in an 11'x12' room about 2 1/2 to 3 feet out from the corners sounded quite good as well as in a slightly larger room. Although the frequency response specifications for both the M-2 and M-3 are similar enough, in-room response is different depending upon natural room reinforcement, which in turn depends upon the room size and acoustics. Another thing to consider is the horizontal radiation pattern, 60 degrees on the M-3 vs. 75 degrees on the M-2. The M-2 may prove to be more tonally rich and full bodied than the M-3, to an extent determined by the room. In your room I think you'd hear it. At the same time it's good to have room for the speakers to breathe, and in smaller rooms the smaller speakers may image better."

- did you really mean to say "it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s"? or did you intend to say M-2s?

I realize everything is room dependent, but let's assume I can do whatever I want with the room; I'm still trying to sort out, for a 12x18 room:

- whether the M-3s will deliver enough bass to be tonally balanced?

- whether the M-2s will bring a notable improvement?

- whether the M-2s are too large to be practical in the room?

Any chance you'd be willing to give a "yes" or "no" to those 3 questions? I realize you haven't seen the room and it's just a guess, but given your experience it's probably a much better guess than mine.

My goal is to get the best sound I can get without feeling like I'm in a compression chamber; at some point (which I think I'm approaching) a system can overwhelm a room (visually and/or sonically). On the flip side, this is a once in every 30 years kind of system investment and I don't want to come up a notch short.

Bottom line: if price wasn't an issue and you wanted to live and listen in a room 18x12, which model would you choose? M-3 or M-2?

Thanks!

Hi Hifi

PS, once we get the model nailed down, we can go back to more amplifier discussions :)
bpwalsh
1,207 posts
 
- did you really mean to say "it's unlikely you'll be wanting for bass augmentation especially if you go with the M-3s"? or did you intend to say M-2s?
Oops, good catch.

Especially since the ceiling height is 10 ft., M-2s may be the way to go. I think the M-3s might be a bit light-sounding by themselves, although you could augment them with subwoofers. A little more information about your room and listening tastes would be helpful before making a strong recommendation.

The M-3 width fits the room better, but I've seen A-1s in rooms your size, which some would argue are too large. The M-2s might be a good middle ground, but see the above paragraph.

Send me an email with your evening phone number, and I'll be happy to give you a call if you'd like to continue this discussion. I'll do my best to avoid sales pitches.

Brian
cousinbillyl
190 posts
 
If you do go with the A-S MA-1's remember their upgrades, spend a little more now to get their very best.
cousinbillyl
190 posts
 
I just recieved a used pair of MA1 Silver editions. They are everything I could have hoped for, including thunderous bass (Coincident Total Victory speakers and Placette Passive linestage).

The person I bought them from (Saddle1) said he will keep his Tenor 150's, only because he has 4 ohm speakers. Otherwise they where very close.

Have you made an amp decision yet?.
dannyandelyse
26 posts
 
Hi...
Excellent choice of speakers...M2s would be best....I might suggest the best Estat amp I have heard...and I have owned Arc, Jadis, Krell, etc and listned to VTLs extensively...the BEST amp being WOLCOTT.
If not Wolcotts...like the VTL
Dan
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