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Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn
mikesinger
572 posts
 
Classe cam mono 350's..... very sweet ss amp and a good match on the maggies.
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
Hey Justin- I know its shocking but with a speaker that technically is 84dB efficiency you real need LOTS of power- the more the better(as long as its clean). When I went from 450 high current watts to 600 high current watts the soundstage gained depth, and grew on each side substantially not to mention better bass response and many other benefits. I've heard other who have had the exact same experience with these speakers- if you can afford 1000+ watts of clean amplification go for it!
aroc
760 posts
 
Tim, are you sure it's the power rating. I know the sensitivity is the low 80s, but jeez how much power headroom is enough? To me it almost seems that it might be another design spec that is at work here. (power supply? current? energy storage?)Though I do respect your advice. You seem to have more experience at this than I do. But with good sounding amps being costly, and the more power the costlier, it's hard to when to stop and be satisfied.

I was really hoping 200wpc world-class tube amps would be enough for 3.6s or 20.1s. :-(
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
Hello Aroc- Sadly I know 200wpc(even high quality tube watts) will really not do justice to the large magnepans. Its so bad I have a friend with 20.1's who's seriously thinking of getting another classe omicron for 2400 watts per channel or something insane like that. He has used the same amps that I am using and then went back to his omicron(800 or 900 watts in dual mono configuration) and the results were amazing- he has friends that confirm his crazy ideas so I have no choice but to believe him, and the fact it matches my experiences. I have tried BAT VK-120 mono's and while its not 200 watts, it was horrible! The midrange was so involving and full of body, but everything else was a large compromise. With mods and lots of power I am getting flat response to 28hz, with his mods and more power and 20.1's he is below or at 20hz. The other thing people complain about is dynamics with magnepans and while this is the biggest problem with the speaker it becomes less o an issue with gobs of power, they really come to life. Its a shame most people stop with "lower" power amps because they are never really experiencing what the speakers are capable of. If I could deal with the heat and expense of a Wotan I am sure it would be down right sublime!
manga
37 posts
 
Hi Aroc:
In addition to the low sensitivity of the Magnepans, they also present an almost purely resistive load as opposed to reactive, which means that the driving amp must be able to supply lots of current. This is really not the forte of tube amps - even of the higher powered ones - unless you were to go with something BIG like the MB-750 or better yet the MB-1250.

You would probably be able to get away with using the amps you mentioned if your listening is mostly done at low volume levels, but there the Maggies are not performing at their best. These speakers need to be turned up a bit for them to start showing off their stuff. The 3.6R's are of a single ended driver design (they are driven by a set of magnets on one side of the element) with a relatively "heavy" membrane of a large surface area who 's either pushed or pulled. This makes it tougher on the amplifier to control the speaker and I am not talking about only the lower frequencies. This is what gives maggies' their less than stellar reputation on dynamics, (I repeat: lack of bynamics through-out the frequency range not just the bass) as stated above by Tireguy as well as attested to by many a Maggie lover.

Fortunately this is the one characteristic that can go from the minus column over to the positive in a decisive manner with the use of a very high powered SS amp. Some months ago there was a review I think in Ultra Audio (web based e-zine, you can do a search)on a high powered Innersound amp which the reviewer was impressed with when pairing it with the 3.6R's. I think he was more impressed with the Maggies rather than the amps in that particular pairing, which I think confirms that these speakers do really require huge amounts of power to truly shine. This was also my experience to some extent with the 1.6QR's when I fed them with more powerful amps; more liveliness, transparency, control (never tried them with 800W per side though - wish I could).
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