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Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn
rooze's avatar
rooze
584 posts
 
Eldartford, I think I would have to agree with you, though some might argue that the smaller amps provide some inner detail that the bigger amps tend to mask.
However, this exercise has helped to illuminate the power requirement curve of the 3.6 and indicate at what point the benefits of more power start to taper off. I'm feeling a little more confident about trying something like the VTL 450, with 500w into 4 ohms. Then again I may try the EA mod on the Carver and see how that sounds!
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Rooze,,,A Mod to the Carver will cost a lot less than the VTL 450. I would be most interested in more info on zr1600 mods. I really think that a simple inexpensive mod to bupass of all the low level signal processing circuitry, and upgrade of a couple of capacitors and OP amps would get you most of the Mod benefits. I can live without silver wire and new binding posts. I would almost do it myself, except that the circuitry is all surface mount and tiny components that make the physical job a lot harder than what would appear on the schematic.

Do you know that on the Carverpro website you can download schematics of the zr1600, and see what we are dealing with?

How do you deal with fan noise? I have three of the super low noise fans to install in my amps, but I have never got around to doing it because my amps are located in the cellar and I can't hear the fans anyway.
rooze's avatar
rooze
584 posts
 
Eldartford, from what I've learned at audiocircle there are two companies offering different upgrades (some common changes, but overall very different sonic results) and the preferred one seems to Empirical Audio (www.empiricalaudio.com)
Their mod is $1650 with shipping on top. So assuming about $25.00 each way, that would be $1700 plus the $750 for the amp, $2450
A pair of used VTL 450's could be had for about $3750
So it's a case of which is going to sound better.

On the audiocircle website there is a shootout between 2 modified ZR's and an ARC VT200, and though somewhat inconclusive, the ARC appears to come out on top against criteria such as midrange and musicality. Given that the VTL 450 is probably a better sounding amp than the ARC, it suggests an even wider margin may exist between the modified Carver and the VTL’s, in favor of the VTL.

This is the dilemma that I have. I don’t want to have second best for the sake of spending another $1300 bucks. I realize all this is subjective and down to personal taste, and that the methodology of arriving at these observations is flawed, however, with an audition of both a VTL and modified Carver being impossible for me, it’s the only method I have to make a decision.

Which way would you go, given the above?
rooze's avatar
rooze
584 posts
 
El..Just to add to the above comment, I think a lot of people would enjoy the process that I've been going through this past year, trying out different amps. So far I've had 9 amps in a year and counting.

I kind of enjoyed it for a while but it's now gotten to be a real pain in the butt, not to mention the back and other parts of my fragile anatomy. In fact, I've been walking around with a permanent stoop from carrying too many 100LB+ amps in and out of the house!!
On Monday, I sprouted a third testicle whilst lifting a Krell FPB200 out of the trunk of my little Dodge Stratus R/T at the UPS station....The woman on the desk asked if I was having a seizure when I walked in. She asked the same question just after she quoted me $467.00 for shipping to my buyer in Sweden.
The Carver sure would be easier on my back and balls, not to mention my wallet.

Rooze

eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Rooze...If I were you (which I am not) and I needed to spend some more money, I would Mod one of my Carver amps, buy a Marchand Electronics crossover, and biamp my Maggies, with the Mod amp on top.

You already have the Carver amp, so the cost is $1700, not $2450. Can you really get the pair of VTL 450 for $3750, Used already. Are you ready for the upkeep costs of a big tube amp? I am sure you will want to upgrade all the tubes right away.

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