Atma-Sphere M60 or David Berning ZH270?

I have owned Coincident Super Eclipses; smaller Victory; and for the past couple of years the Total Victory. I have used many different amplifiers on them, and have found a good push-pull triode circuit to me most effective (especially on any of the models BUT the smaller Victory, which is really the ONLY Coincident speaker in my humble opinion that can make do with an SE amp <20 watts).

The Super E's do like a bit of power (amps that have worked well on them in the past for me were the 1009 60-watt ASL PP triode 845 monos; and a very cool set of modded Altec 1570B's using a pair of 811's per amp- they were fantastic with the SE's. Trelja made a good point though- the Super E's WILL show up ANY harshness in upstream componentry, so audition with the speakers IF you can...

I have even bi-amped the Super E's in the past, which can produce fantastic results, and I am about to try it with the Total Victorys- ARC VT100MKIII on bass/mis-bass; and a customized pp2A3 on mids/ribbon tweeter- it's going to be a fun experiment!

In summary, to Trelja's other point, Israel is definitely in the transformer-based tube amp camp, and as I live 5 minutes from him, we have had a lot of fun trying many amps with all of the Coincident speakers. Our most recent experiment was a set of the Dehavilland 50-watt GM70 SET monos. Except for not being able to rock and roll too well, the were superb on the Super E's- excellent detail and delicacy- on the smaller less 'hungry' Victory, I could probably live with them, as I have become a big fan of the medium-high power big triodes (845; but even better the 211). One day for a second system, I want to get back to the smaller Victory's in a smaller room with the Air Tight ATM-211's- something tells me that would be a magnificent combo...

hmmm bery interesting thread. i had the Atma's in my system (the MA-1's) and loved them with my Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage's, in fact i liked them much more than amps from VTL, AR, Bel Canto and CJ. Ultimately, i preferred the sound of the Atma's, but but there were some serious practical considerations - heat ( A LOT OF IT, which is ok in MN winter, but any other time of the year, forget it), open tubes (i have a 2 and a 4 yr old), monoblock design and upkeep(not cheap).

Still, as i have mentioned in other posts, i was still ready to buy a set - then i bought the Berning, mostly on a whim, and have not looked back. It provided 95% of all that 'magic' that atmas did, yet gave better bass and dynamics, and runs only as hot as a 300 watt light bulb. I love this amp more than anything else in my system (well, equal to the Guarneris)

Having said all that, i think both are excellent, but for my $, the Berning is a better all-around performer, and has all those built-in practical advantages.

Sutts writes:

smaller Victory .... which is really the ONLY Coincident speaker in my humble opinion that can make do with an SE amp <20 watts

I use Super Eclipse Series II with 8 watt 300Bs (Welborne Lab Laurels Ultimate Upgrade) and in my apartment they are superb. Obviously I don't listen at high volumes; and the original poster likes "20 century's big symphony orchestra works" so I can see that he needs more power than I do. We have the same size listening room though.

Sutts, thanks for your insight into the Coincident models you have owned. I was at CES last week and Israel was making nice music with Super E Series III and Manley amps.

Regards,

For those who haven't kept up with everything, Ralph has ALWAYS favored the old chassis of the M60. It's his seminal design, it is HIS amplifier (in any and every way you can think of). If you put a gun to his head and told him he could only make one product, this would be it. As a picture is worth a thousand words, you can see that he has returned to what he believes in. We should ALL be ecstatic about that.

John (Sutts) and I almost always agree, as we do here. So, a classic tube amp seems to be the way to go with the Coincidents. I will say that a good friend of mine ended up with the Coincident Triumph UHS because they were one of only a couple of speakers that we found that could be driven with his absolute flea powered AudioValve integrated - supposedly 25 watts, but it sounds like 3 wpc to me.

Thanks guys. Your advices really helps!!

Swampwalker writes:

"The best way to explain it in terms of your musical tastes (forgive me if I'm way off base, I said I'm no classical fan) is just different readings of the same score, or different character of 2 different, great old violins"

Very good analogy, indeed. As a violin player and 1/2 piano player (I am a amateur though I have attended local chamber ensemable), I know exactly how a violin (though not Stradivarius class) and piano should sound in my room. I can never reproduce the instruments sound in my room with my stereo system. The resonant quality of the sound of a violin just isn't there. I hear more like sound of hi-fi than a real instrument. But different makers of violin do make difference from my mi-fi system. The distinctive sweetness of "Amati" and pure transparancy of Stradivarius can be clearly identified. So Amati as Atma vs. Stradivarius as Bernings (no judgement here of quality just different sound, actually I like both instruments sound depending on what music is played). Regard to "different readings of the same score", are you refering to Bernstein vs. Karajan, Yo-Yo Ma vs. Rostropovich, or Janet Baker vs. Christa Ludwig? This sounds more like "interpretation" to me and after all, Hi Fi, in my opinion, is an art of reproduction not interpretation. But I like your analogy anyway.

Nealhood & Rushton:

What a nice photo! I like it a bit more than the current version of the M60 II.3 and actually I like their old chasis better than the new. The connectors and speaker post are still on the front that makes connection a bit awkward and WAF is low (at least my wife isn't thrill about it). The Atma's may sound fantastic but to me it looks more like a labs equipment than consumer product. In my humble opinion, their products really need a good industrial designer (like Pass Labs XA and X.5 series stuffs). From looking at the photos of Berning, it's also just plain looking as well. "Sound" is the utmost important priority but be sure you can look at it everyday and can live with for a long time.

Trelia writes:

"But, as Spencer pointed out, with my Coincidents, which are incidentally warmer and more full bodied than any other pair you will find out there, the OTL sound does not seem to suit them as well."

I may misunderstand your point, but does "your Coincident" any different than mine? Did you have mod one them? Or are you referring to other brands of speaker?

Also another question for you: does Israel chooses Transformer coupled amplifiers lately may just because there isn't many OTL on the market? Just a guess.

Oneprof:

When I taked to Allan, he only mentioned optional internal silver wiring upgrade. Any other upgrades out there?

Artg:

It sounds we have the similar concerns and reasons to choose Berning (though I haven't 100% decide to go with Berning yet, see below). Berning may not be perfect but it gets 95% things there without other headaches.

Sutts & Metralla:

Interesting. I also have a Welborne DRD 300B (8 watts) ultimate version and pairs with my SE III sounds great with solo and chamber music. It does run out of steam when Mahler is played. Currently, I interchange Welborne with a NAD C272. The NAD sounds good but not great. On music of Mahler, it clearly betters the Welborne in terms of dynamic which Mahler's music really shine. I even open to consideration for the new Pass Labs X.5 amplifier for orchestra music. I know, I know, solid state never gets the sound of tube, but does Berning really outclass Pass Labs in terms of dynamic, attack, smoothness, and transparency where modern symphonic works really need? Do I get 90% of the Berning if I choose Pass?