music , mind , thought and emotion

6ch: you always crack me up; you go away for days, then come back with some big explanatory response - to what, I don't know. You imply that you are teaching me, but what statements of mine do you address? You tell me before there are no levels -trying to "teach" me that then - but then here you say that Bodhisattva has a level - you are playing Zen games (with yourself). Besides, where you got the idea that I thought a Bodhisattva was something other than a human (making him/her other-worldly in a "mountain hole", wherever you got that...) is beyond me.

Here's what I think. I think you go off for a couple of days, get a little Zen bliss high, then come back to me as your foil (to be your mirror) so you can see how "enlightened" you are. Do you need to teach me in order to prove to yourself you are "enlightened"?

I disagree with you: all is not mind, that is mind talking. Mind (thinking) arises from Ground (you've seen that haven't you, in minds that you "see"?) of Silence, yet ground is never separate from mind. Jesus could talk (mind) without karma because all instinctual remnants (Tibetan "defilements") had faded from him; he had transcended all prior minds' attachment throughout all evolution (which, yes, is only HERE/NOW). He had moved past amoeba mind by surrendering to it; not surrender as in it "wins" but by accepting it (its an illusion; its "energy" perpetuated by your resistance to it).

I disagree with you that everyone is "Jesus", or rather knows what he knew in his bones, becoming his bones. I know you want to be the Laughing Buddha gadfly, but samsara exists in most people, and so the Buddha told us. Denial of that is samsara itself. Why did Jesus/Buddha talk at all? The Bodhisattva vow says that one will not stay in Nirvana until all sentient beings (not just humans BTW) are saved from suffering, which, of course, means that some/most beings are suffering. Buddhas don't suffer; they have transcended its attachment - that's what makes them "Buddha". You can be there - yes, RIGHT NOW/HERE - but, for all my affection for you, my friend, you are not there, and that needs to be clearly said. Glad you are enjoying the bliss of your peak exprerience, though. As I said, try to cut back on the Zen books a bit...

Ozfly: thank you for your lucid response. And for more surf.

Yes, primordial patterns of sound exist in us, its not just from culture (although that's where Jung saw it). Like Kant's space/time matrix, or Chomsky's language template, a template for pattern recognition exists (bewteen those two BTW). My point, however, was that the evolutionary forces that "created" this patterning lens in the mind's perception was one that strongly selected an active patterning of sound, yet when we listen to music we are not just actively listening to sound (a twig moving) but the opposite: letting that active orientation go. The forces of survival that lead to active patterning would not seem to be the forces that would lead to the "letting go" of an attachment to that patterning.

Loved what you said though.

"I did not write/speak to/for you. So I did not say a word, to you... in the end. :-)" But, 6, your word DID reach many others!
I, for one, still wonder if the mind is always free or sometimes "licentious", overpowering even :)?

Words are meddled lightly on grave subjects. There is too much talking, as if you all had Buddha, Jesus in your pockets. It is a paradox: Words are necessary,how else could we meet, but then they are completely off the mark, because it is in silence, that music happens. Forgive me, because, though I may be right, I am certainly unjust. All the same, your talk reminds me of theologists who philophise lightly about the GODHEAD, but probably would pee their pants en face of the tremendum. I would.

Indeed, Detlof "words are like leaves, and where they most abound much fruit of sense beneath is rarely found..."
But perhaps there *is* an underlying "sense" to words, here, beyond meeting? Not always in the content of the words, I agree, but in the context of *pushing* the meeting *further* or not losing this unexpected contact.

As you note, this doesn't justify hubris. Maybe partly explains -- but this, my, comment is still off the mark.

Music happens more, as the mind is silenced more and emotion rises more independently. Maybe then, for a moment, thoughts (are allowed to) become dreams.

Detlof, I have 3 cents in my pocket, what do you have in yours? OK, OK, Just kidding... hahaha... :-) Cheers!