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Budget system not up to expectations...

Hi.
I've just set up a new system, and I'm trying to troubleshoot it.
Hopefully, someone might have some insight for me.

I had an older Onkyo system (SV414 amp with 6CD) powering some old Infinity Studio Monitor 100s.

I'd been looking around to upgrade my speakers, and decided that B&W CDM1s sounded great for their pricepoint.
I found a used pair, that the seller let me demo, and they sounded great compared to what I'd previously had.
So upon purchase, I decided that it was time to move up from lampcord and buy some quality speaker cable.
I selected a used 10' of Analysis Plus Oval 9, which came with the T1 spades, that of course did not fit in the Onkyo barewire speaker connects.

So I had to upgrade my amp. I decided to go with a Denon AVR-1803 receiver over the Yamaha RX-V800.
Of course when the Denon arrived the speaker posts fit banana & barewire only (I could have sworn I read that it had 5-way!) which when speaking to Analysis Plus about retermination,
they said that AudioQuest makes a Spade to Banana adapter that would be just fine. It didn't make much sense to me that if the construction of a cable is so crucial, how an adapter could be harmless, but I took the manufacturer's word for it.

I noticed that my Apex DVD player had a digital coax out, so I figured, why not see how that fits in with the system, since I already own it, plus the cost of an AQ VSD1 coax.

So finally, this evening, I got a chance to hook it all up after a month of frugal planning.

While it sounds better than my old system, I can't quite tell if I'm being over-expectant, but it doesn't quite sound as good as when I demo'd the speakers on my old Onkyo connected with quickly stripped spare coax I had out in the garage.
The sound seems muffled, and the stereo field sounds completely fake. If I position myself near the sweet-spot, and lean from left to right, it feels like the corresponding speaker is simply louder, and there is no illusion of stereo space.
I auditioned the same CDs on both the Onkyo CD through Analog, and the Apex DVD on both digital and analog. (the Onkyo had much much more bass.)

Can anyone offer any suggestions?

System recap:

Denon AVR-1803
B&W CDM1 on Apollo A3 stands
10' Analysis Plus Oval 9 with T1 Spades & gold banana adapters
(used, so pre-burnt in)
Onkyo 6-Disc changer
Apex AD-660 DVD with Digital out
painter
ezmeralda11
303 posts
 
"Sadly, I think the Onkyo/lampcord sounds slightly better"

It might actually. I tried the AP oval 9 a couple years ago in my 2ch system that was about $10k then (Hybrid tube/ss circuits). It didn't do anything performance wise and I went back to my longer runs of Kimber 4PR I'd had for 7 years. (When the salesmen found out I was using 4PR they'd always freak out like I was heretic, but it didn't bother me since I knew better). When I emailed analysis plus asking the LCR values of their cables--they wouldn't even give me an answer. Just one of these politician BS answers that circumvents the question "we feel that inductance is largely misunderstood in cable....blah, blah, blah". You could sell the AP at over half, maybe 2/3 of what you paid.

NAD builds nice integrateds for <$400 new and the older Audiolab 8000 series were pretty good units too. If you insist on using one of these high peformance cables you might want to try something like Kimber 4PR for a system like yours or another cheaper cable like Bluefin says. Personally, spending more money on your speaker cables than your amp, as others have noted, really isn't the best way to get maximum performance.

Search older threads on budget integrateds for more discourse, there should be quite a few.
benthar
42 posts
 
Painter, my experience with friends I've known assembling low to mid fi systems is that when they bring one or two pieces from a store into thier own system, it sounds completely different, especially in the amp/cable/speaker loop. The way these 3 interact can be frustrating. More expensive isn't necessarily better if things don't mate up.
If you're rich, you can keep swapping things out till you get a good match. If you're not, things are tough! The above respondents certainly were not sensitive to that. You need to get all your gear to a shop, cables included, to try as many combinations as possible...or find some way to get a bunch of gear/cables to your place for trial. There is no other way.
inscrutable
313 posts
 
Painter,
Does the Denon have an analog or 2-ch direct feature? And do you have any friends or a cooperative dealer from whom to get some other/better gear to try? I'd be curious about 3 options:
1. a better CDP analog into the receiver's analog bypass
2. an outboard 2-ch amp
3. an outboard small integrated (in addition to, not in lieu of, your receiver)
If you are saying you could spend an additional $400-600, I think any of these will offer an improvement, but it'd be nice to try before you buy to see which offers the best return to your ears.
pe3046
120 posts
 
I can tell you the integrated's that I was looking at, but my speakers were not as power hungry as the bw. Someone just posted a used Rotel for $425, The audio refinement complete (60w per channel but very nice and musical sounding), The roksan caspian..I have seen these go used for $595 sometimes, the creek, nad, arcam. Someone more familiar with the power requirements of the BW can direct you to the type of wattage you want. If it were me, I would sell the AP Oval 9 speaker cables to spend more money towards the amp (you should be able to get what you paid for them if you bought them used off audiogon). As never owning these but from what I have read they are more towards the neutral to bright sound, the opposite I would think of what you would need for this level of equipment. You should look to spend around $30-50 used on interconnects (straightwire chorus, MIT T2, DIY cables, audioquest)and less than $100 used on speaker cables (a little more for bi-wire versions)I would go for a warmer sounding cable but that is what I like. For $600 you could get a Adcom GF710 pre-amp (remote) and a adcom 545 or 5400 amp. I would advise you to do more research (search older threads,look on audio asylum also) on integrated and pre/amp combos or what amp's people are using with the bw and then post again. There are also some good deals in higher wattage amps if you go something a little older.

Patrick
gunbei
2,327 posts
 
I used three different runs of Analysis Plus Oval 9 during the period I owned the Simaudio Moon I-5 and Electrocompaniet ECI-3 integrateds. The speakers at the time were Sonus Faber Concertinos and ProAc Tablette 50 Signatures. My experience with the AP9s was that they delivered a full sound especially in comparison to the DH Labs T14s which they replaced. Although I liked them, I've heard varying accounts of how the AP9s affected people's systems, so I don't think it's safe to assume how they'll sound if you buy a new amp.

The Simaudio Moon I-5 is a 70wpc solid state integrated. It has lot's of detail, but sounds a bit on the lean side so I don't know how it'll work mated to your B&W CDM1s and source. The Electrocompaniet also 70wpc has most of the good things of the Moon I-5, but with a smoother presentation. Both integrateds sound much stronger than 70wpc, and can usually be found for between $1000-1500 used.

I'm not sure of the CDM1's sonic signature, but I've heard they can be tough to drive, so a tube or low powered SS integrated might struggle a bit. Even still, I would consider the Rogue Tempest or Audio Research CA50 tube integrateds if you can swing the cash and sell your other amps. Do you listen loud? What kind of music do you like?
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