Best Preamp = No Preamp?

Grannyring, your right, and here is the deal, your post came out and got approved at the same time as mine to be viewed by others... actually about 5 other posts went at the same time and hours later posted that were not up when I wrote mine, so when somebody looks at the thread it looks like comments were directly posted about immediatly above posts.. We will see if A-Gon lets this explanation post, I have put it several times on other posts and they just block it and sometimes it can make people look "Wrong" or un-clear of who they are directing posts toward. Yes we totally agree on the preamp issue.

I have both a transporter and a squeezebox. Problem if you use the integrated volume control is that the preamp gain setting is implemented in by a digital gain setting in the DAC chip: if you output less than ~30dB below the max volume, you start losing on S?N ratio (that's why I use two passive attenuators at the input of the amp, as the amp gain is too high). Result is quite good...
On other DAC/CD players, the preamplification is done in analog domain, like in my (ordered) APL NWO 2.5T (supposed to be great, even better than the best preamp, will tell you when I receive it next month)

I totally agree with Undertow and Grannyring. That too has been my experience with passive and straight-into-the-amp sources...something is always missing and that something has ALWAYS translated (for me) into a flat, dry, and smaller sound than going through a good preamp.

Itsalldark, you said:
"When you put a pre amp into your system you are now listening to music that has been changed by the manufacturer of said pre"

That basically says nothing or everything, depending on your view point. The result of any signal passing through ANY component is changed from input to output by some degree.
As we all know there are those audiophiles who desire to re-create the exact (but amplified) copy of the what was captured in the recording studio (unless you were in control of the mixing process you fail this quest at this step) in their homes...and feel that any component that colors the signal is bad (even if that results in a beautiful sound)...of course its not possible to re-create this signal with 100% accuracy and it's also something i happen to not care about. What I care about is good sound, and if, for example, a pre-amplifier's colorations result in my increased listening pleasure then so be it.

After spending thousands on gear...give me "colored", interesting, musical, sound anyday over analytical, dry, mechanical sound, even if that accuracy is objectively a closer correlation with the captured waveform in the studio...bottom line is if it sounds good to my, yours, or his ears that's all that matters.

In keeping with the theme of this post, I have yet to find a truly great/captivating sound with any pre-amp less system. It would be sweet if that were the case (who wouldn't welcome one less box?), but so far in my experience a pre-amp has always improved the perceived sound quality. YMMV :)

I have my Audio Aero Capitole cdp direct through the Threshold T-200. Nothing touches it BUT the table goes through the Audible Illusions M3A or it doesn't shine.

In order to get rid of the pre-amp, I think a few conditions need to be met:

1) high quality parts for the attenuator at the CD/DAC output
2) enough muscle/high quality parts in the DAC analogy section to drive the cable and power amp.
3) Good cable that's easy to drive
4) Easy load at the power amp end.

I personally consider a Pre-amp is an outboard attenuator + extra muscle to drive the cable and power amp.

In my experience, no pre-amp is always better than a crappy pre-amp; a good pre-amp is always better than having no pre-amp.

But then I have never tried super high quality passive pre-amps.