You got to show me something more!

Originally posted this in the JAZZ on PBS thread, but this is where the action seems to be-I'll just paste the post in here: I'm a little late to the party here and in "you got to show me" thread but would agree with many of the "live and let live" posts. I think, however, Coltrane, that you're engaging in some serious historic revisionism when you state above that rock was born out of jazz. It's pretty clear that both rock and jazz were originally spawned by blues (although we could engage in endless chatter about how all these various forms of music have evolved). Whether it was Ellington or Armstrong, Presley or the Stones, they all started playing variations on themes originally presented by Handy, Johnson, Dixon and Waters. Personally, I am waiting for the Blues series on PBS, but not holding my breath. Jazz may not get the respect it truly deserves, but Blues gets even less.

I could be unappreciative and self-centered but "Ignorant-stoopid", I ain't. but, I took a second sighting on your babbling and figured, in manner or speech, you were just coming on as a so-called tough to impress me. I am not impressed. It is dangerous word, baby, that one, and if you use it against somebody standing in the same room with you there is a good chance you are going to get your lights turned out. Maan!

On a long thread last month regarding jazz recordings, I made a number of posts. Rather than try to recap my comments, let me quickly offer than I have been an avid jazz enthusiast since high school (late 1950's), and have taught a college course in jazz appreciate. Some of the remarks made on this thread either miss some important points about this extraordinary music, or are well-intentioned but misleading. For example, HiWaves commented that jazz musicians are imitators of the classical genre, and that jazz musicians do not really understand counterpoint. Nothing personal, HiWaves, but most GOOD jazz musicians go substantially beyond imitation by spontaneously creating music as they play. That, in essence, is what sets jazz apart from virtually all other major musical forms. Ken Burns' "Jazz" makes the valid point that jazz is an amalgam for forms: marches, late 1800's dances, blues, ragtime, negro work songs and chants, French operatic aria, etc. With regard to the comments about Bach: I also love Bach, as well as Mozart, Handel, Beethoven, and probably 100 or more great classical composers. But none of them combined extraordinary instrumental virtuousity with the ability to spontaneously created syncopated, polythmic music derived from a broad confluence of musical tradition. Listen to any good jazz drummer, for example, and you will hear 3-4 simultaneous rhythms. I have two references that I recommend to anyone interested in learning about jazz the music, not just the musicians who play the music. First, find the tape recording (or LP) titled "Jazz", which is a 1956 TV program from the Omnibus series, narrated by Leonard Bernstein. Lenny discusses the forms of jazz and the improvisational styles, with support from musicians such as Miles Davis. It's a great tape, and one that is always well received in my jazz appreciation class. The other reference source is the definitive college text on jazz: "Jazz Styles: History and Analysis", by Mark C. Gridley (published by Prentice-Hall). This book is easy to read, highly informative and interesting, and provides an excellent basis for really understanding America's only original art form.

"I'm a little late to the party here and in "you got to show me" thread but would agree with many of the "live and let live" posts."

Yes, you are late, but that doesn't matter. But that doesn't explain your comment above. You've jumped on board the identical erroneous conclusion as the people you're purportedly agreeing with. No one ever suggested, least of all me, one shouldn't listen to any particular type of music because it is inferior to another. To the contrary. What I HAVE suggested, is a person who doesn't understand a certain type of music shouldn't be so closeminded to suggest that because they fail to understand it, the music has no merit!

"Whether it was Ellington or Armstrong, Presley or the Stones, they all started playing variations on themes originally presented by Handy, Johnson, Dixon and Waters."

Hardly! Explain to me where Presley, the Stones, or even Armstong played anything remotely close to placing one scale upon another? Ellington began doing this in the 30's long before it became in vogue in jazz in the 50's, and his doing so hardly related to a variation on a theme from Handy, Johnson, or anyone else that preceeded him. These new harmonies all came about by design, not as a variation upon a theme.

I enjoy a healty debate as much as the next person, but it's important that information be accurate.

"Personally, I am waiting for the Blues series on PBS, but not holding my breath. Jazz may not get the respect it truly deserves, but Blues gets even less."

Finally, someone echoes what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread. Bottom line. Jazz doesn't get the respect that's due it, and I hasten to ad, that is probably because folks choose not to investigate it enough to understand it! Those that do, understand that there's more happening between the lines than their ears first hip them to. Those that don't, close their minds, and their ears, and therefore miss out entirely. The appreciation of jazz, like any other art form, is enhanced with some rudimentary understanding of music. Time well spent if you ask me, as the analyzation of any musical form only serves to reap greater rewards upon the listener!

Enjoy!
Coltrane1 Yes, you are late, but that doesn't matter. But that doesn't explain your comment above. You've jumped on board the identical erroneous conclusion as the people you're purportedly agreeing with. No one ever suggested, least of all me, one shouldn't listen to any particular type of music because it is inferior to another. To the contrary. What I HAVE suggested, is a person who doesn't understand a certain type of music shouldn't be so closeminded to suggest that because they fail to understand it, the music has no merit!

"I think, however, Coltrane, that you're engaging in some serious historic revisionism when you state above that rock was born out of jazz." Historic revisionism. That's a fancy way of saying you've been hit over the head with the truth, and it's unsettling to you. Study the technical structure of rock in the 50's, 60's, which is a basic I to V to I to V chord, with an occasional IV chord tossed in, and Voila, you have nothing more than a basis for the Blues, which you obviously are aware is the basis for jazz.

Coltrane: You have now become the mind reader you recently accused Dekay of being. My agreement with the "live and let live" posts refers to people listening to what they want because they enjoy it. I happen to listen to mainly blues and some jazz (as well as other types of music) because I ENJOY it-my enjoyment of the music has nothing to do with whether I think one musical form is inferior or superior to another. I can assure you though that I do not enjoy all forms of the blues any more than I enjoy all forms of jazz. As you've deduced, I agree with you on many points; what I disagree with most is the way you're trying to make your point. I also disagree (if I'm reading you correctly) that jazz is the "superior" music form, but, then again, I don't have your technical understanding of the music. Your technical ramblings, however, leave me cold, much the way a technically proficient musician without an ability to inject emotion into the music leaves me. Re-read my post, particularly where I stated we could chatter endlessly about how the various musical forms have evolved. Your "placing one scale upon another" is in fact, part of that evolution, even if you proclaim it to be what makes jazz "superior". Blues is, unequivocally, the foundation upon which both jazz and rock are built; all your final paragraph says to me is that rock is built on a slightly less sophisticated foundation. Here's to the music.