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World's best Pre-amp for $10K and above?

Looking for the HOLY GRAIL in Audio? Here it is. I'm in my early sixties and retiring to my final system, which I was going to purchase during the past twelve months and decided to put on the brakes, and investigate whats out there as the most advanced engineered high end audio products for the money in the market place. As far as I'm concerned, the two top engineers in the world for the best Amp and Preamp at low prices are Bent Holter with Hegel Audio in Norway and Roger Sanders with Sanders Sound in Colorado. Why? The Hegel P-30 Pre-amp is a game changer, and will easily compete with Pre-amps at $30K and above. The FM Acoustics 268 Preamp that retails for $107K, uses a technology thats called "feedforward" instead of feedback.
Amps and Pre-amps since the early 80's have all used either global feedback, zero feedback or local feedback to filter out noise and lower distortion by sending and filtering the feedback current to filter capacitors or or an extra filter transformer. A small amount of voltage feedback occurs at the output stage in amps and preamps which goes back into the parts and boards causing noise and distortion which smears the quality of the music.The best Preamps in the world all have S/N noise ratios at 125 db's or above. The Hegel P-30 Preamp uses the same feedforward technology as FM Acoustics but is a more current design that Bent Holter calls "Sound Engine" patented technology that eliminates feedback which is why the P-30 Preamp has a S/N ratio of 132 db's, which has never been accomplished in high end audio with a Preamp costing $10K or below. The same applies to Roger Sanders Magtech amplifier which uses a patented linear voltage regulator that controls and regulates voltage with no excess voltage going back into the amp causing heat and distortion problems. The amp puts out 900 watts into 4ohms. Krell makes a pair of mono blocs that also use a similar voltage regulator. The amps are $100K a pair. HERES THE PERFECT SOLID STATE SYSTEM. A Hegel P-30 Preamp. A Sanders Magtech amp, A pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. The worlds finest SACD player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, designed by Andreas Koch, who invented SACD technology when he worked for Sony. He built the worlds first outboard DAC in 1982 and is legend in digital engineering. The MPS-5 is the most analog sounding player on the market which costs $17K. The Hegel P-30 is only $7500.00 and the Magtech amp is only $5K. The Aerials are $10K. Buy the solid core cables from Morrow Audio. They are low capacitance cables which matches up perfectly with these components. This combination sounds like the very best tube and solid state gear on the market. The whole system will cost about $42K but will sound as good as any system costing $200K. All of these products are game changers. If you want better looking cabinets and faceplates, then blow your money, but you will not get better performance for what this system has to offer. It is the HOLY GRAIL you are searching for and there is no better combination for the total cost of the system.
audiozen
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,510 posts
 
I find the topic of parts quality in amps very interesting. There is a well known amp builder in Minnesota that blew me away after I spoke with him. I was interested In buying one of his hybrid amps that is pretty well reviewed. Small company and pretty well respected. Van Alstine. I was ready to buy one, but did not after our conversation. He is a nice guy and builds nice products. When I asked him about the caps he used he quickly and and somewhat defensively started on a long attack against "so called audiophile" caps. He does not listen or should I say purchase based on listening tests, but by specs and adherence to very exacting specs. He is a spec guy.

I know he is very skilled and educated in the area of electronics. I respect him for that. But I know from real and repeated experience that caps do sound different - and some better then others - period. I have replaced many cheap caps in key positions with Mundorf SGO's and Duelund CAST caps and each and every time with Big improvements realized. These caps sounded better In gear that was well designed and highly reviewed.

I simply cannot buy from a builder who stongly feels all well speced caps, resistors, wire etc... sound the same in anything he makes. The builder must listen and make decisions based on listening tests and trial. This should be priority number one! Yes, the cap needs to be off high quality and last etc...

I just cannot understand how a knowledgable builder can dismiss what is so easily discerned through the ears? Perhaps my hearing is wrong and I have convinced myself of something that is not real? Perhaps these caps that measure well sound good enough or close enough to the builder and he does not appreciate the nuances that make Hifi sound more like real music? Nuances that make a big difference to me may be nothing to another. Again, I suppose that is why I did not buy or try his amp.

I would love to take one of his amps and replace several key signal caps with Duelunds and listen. I suppose it's possible his amp would sound no different, but this would be the one and only time such a result transpired based on my experience and others I know.

I understand if the builder must hit a price point and watch costs, but to passionately state that this audiophile boutique cap stuff is all bull is out of bounds to this Aphile.
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
Grannyring,
Could be these builders take much pride in their products(experience,time,effort,research etc.) and may feel insulted that someone comes along and says they can improve the sound of their pride and joy components by 'merely' changing out their carefully selected and tested parts.May just be hard for some of them to accept.The fact is that significant improvement is possible with certain upgrades just as you and others have personally discovered.
Regards,
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,859 posts
 
Grannyring, OK- I have to admit that I run into engineers that rely entirely on specs. Decades ago I used to work at Sperry Corporation on something called the Eagle Project. What I saw there is borne out in my own experience- that an engineer that does not go down to the test floor, see how things are going, talk to the technicians and the like working on the thing is also an incompetent engineer.

There are just simply things you have to take into account! So a competent engineer will always monitor the actual product rather than sit behind his desk. In audio that means you have to listen to it. And yes, components make a difference; I think my point is you start with the circuit, and the specs which should provide 99% of the sound of the unit.

In my work, I never rely on 'synergies' which is what we could well talking about here- using components to shut down a brightness, or to brighten up something that sounds dull. I've played with a lot of high end caps and resistors and in particular with the caps I've not found that many that had problems- most of them sound fine. But I *have* seen a few that were problematic- and when you delved into the construction details and specs, it was easy to see why.

It may well be that what I do is called 'voicing' by others but I've yet to *have* to use a particular cap or resistor to make something sound right, although I avoid cheap parts in that regard (for example Xicon caps can sound quite bright). Usually the higher end parts are simply adding nuance and almost never anything tonal.

I do not just rely on specs to determine the musical
quality of an Amp or Preamp. If that were the case, I'd buy my separates through a mail order catalog without listening. The point I made is that the most expensive and most musical separates globally that sell in the $15K to $100K range, brands that are well recognized and have outstanding international reviews for years, all have specs that are in common with each other. Higher S/N ratio's, ultra low distortion, and wider bandwidth's and higher damping factor's.

Am I the only one that sees the contradiction in this paragraph (compare 1st sentence against the rest of the paragraph). Audiozen, you are completely mistaken about specs in this paragraph, for example 'damping factor' mostly has a basis in mythology. There are speakers that need a damping factor of 1:10 and others that need 10:1. There are no speakers that need more than 20:1. So why would an amp with 1000:1 be better? The simple answer is it probably isn't.

What is going on, just on that subject alone has to do with how the amp interfaces with the speaker. For example the fact that tubes are still around 60 years after becoming obsolete should tell you that the audio industry does not have a good answer for that. For more look here:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

The distortion thing is also counter-intuitive. Ultra-low distortion, IME indicates that while the unit may measure well, its highly unlikely that it will get complements on its sound. This is because what distortion it does make will likely be elevated amounts of odd-ordered harmonics which the ear finds unpleasant and depends on so heavily to determine sound pressure. So we can hear trace amounts that are almost impossible to measure.
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
In the current 6Moons there is a review of the 75,000 dollar Tenor linestage. The designer Michael Broeck has a very interesting discussion concerning negative feedback,odd order distortion,natural sound and 'natural' distortion and the human ear-brain processing of sound.

He attempts to explain why most very low distortion amplifiers often sound very unnatrual and unconvincing musically and why the human ear detects and identifies this as incorrect. Food for thought.
Regards,
knghifi
1,668 posts
 
08-20-12: Charles1dad
In the current 6Moons there is a review of the 75,000 dollar Tenor linestage. The designer Michael Broeck has a very interesting discussion concerning negative feedback,odd order distortion,natural sound and 'natural' distortion and the human ear-brain processing of sound.

He attempts to explain why most very low distortion amplifiers often sound very unnatrual and unconvincing musically and why the human ear detects and identifies this as incorrect. Food for thought.
Regards,
Charles1dad (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
There are many ways to skin a cat. A different approach is NOT necessary incompetent if it solves the same problem. Have a open mind and easy on the EGO.
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