Rules for matching subwoofers to room size

Now we are talking - thanks all for your input.

I actually do not have the mains (or really much of any of the equipment) I will use in this room yet. Most of my current two channel system will go to my new modest sized living room and I will start from scratch with gear for the new larger audio/video room. I will do my best to set the new room up with as few acoustic problems as possible from the start, and then demo/buy/sell/trade until I find the speakers I like in that space. I am definitely leaning towards floor standing speakers (and amps that can drive them) that can honestly go down to at least 40Hz without straining, and then supplementing lower bass with a sub - thus this thread.

I have a small Klipsch sub in my current small (12'x14') theater room, and while it is a clean little sucker, it will not go much below 30Hz nor pressurize the new larger planned listening room to the levels I seek. I have worked to integrate my current sub with various configurations of speakers and amplifiers - so am pretty handy with a spl meter and test disk. To be honest, even with cutoffs above 80Hz I have a hard time locating the source of the bass once the sub's position and phase is dialed in properly.

The reason I asked the original question is that I believe I have read that there is an inherent limitation on the bass frequencies that can be reproduced related to room length and to a lesser degree room volume. I guess what I really meant - is in a 20 foot long room, how low of bass notes can I reasonably expect to reproduce? And, if there is a limitation, what is the point of getting a sub that can in theory go down to 19Hz if my room can only allow me to hear or resolve 25Hz? I am way off here? Your continued patience and input much appreciated.

This business about not being able to locate a subwoofer is simply untrue in my experience.

Perhaps it is based on experiments with pure sine waves. With the possible exception of a flute, musical instruments don't produce pure sine waves. A drum is often cited as an instrument that energizes a subwoofer, but a drum also produces percussive sounds at much higher frequency. These sounds should eminate from the same location as the deep thump.

Of course, you don't need to decide on a SW location until you get one, and when that happens you can try out various locations and decide for yourself.

Eldartford, note that I specified "steep crossover". The typical 12 dB per octave lowpass filter is too shallow; you need a 24 dB per octave filter if the crossover point is going to be up around 80 Hz or so.

I repeat that the ear cannot localize sounds below 80 Hz; it is physiologically nearly impossible. When you hear the location of a kickdrum, your ears are using the upper harmonics and skin tone to determine its location. The bottom end of the kickdrum sound will seem to come from the same location as the upper frequencies, but it doesn't matter whether it really does or not.

Let me explain a bit further. The ears localize sound from the first .68 milliseconds of a sound impulse, which corresponds to the roughly nine inch path length around your head from one ear to another. At 80 Hz, your ears can barely detect less than 1 wavelength of sound. If a system were to play 1/2 of a wavelength at 80 Hz, with no overshoot or ringing at the end of that 1/2 cycle, you would not even hear it even if it was very loud. One cycle at 80 Hz takes 12.5 milliseconds to complete. So by the time the ear/brain system even begins to detect the presence of a low bass tone, we are way, way past the .68 millisecond sound localization time window.

You are correct that pure sine waves do not exist in music, with the possible exception of the flute. But the only way to study the ear's response at low frequencies in isolation is to use sine waves, which contain zero harmonic energy. There are no other waveforms which contain zero harmonic energy.

Anytime you can hear the location of a subwoofer, the system is either set up incorrectly or the subwoofer's lowpass filter is too shallow.

Knownothing, the ear's ability to hear low frequency energy is unrelated to room size. If it were, you wouldn't even hear midrange energy, much less bass, from headphones - wherein the room is formed by the headphone cupping around your ear.

One other situation that would allow you to hear the location of a subwoofer would be if the system was poorly designed, such that the subwoofer had high harmonic distortion (or a buzz or rattle) or port noises. Drew Eckhardt mentioned this in his post above, and he is absolutely correct.

Thanks, helpful.