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Toe-in recommendation for stand mount monitors

I've used floor standing electrostatic speakers almost exclusively for over 30 years and am transitioning, I think, to stand mount monitors. I've positioned them to start with in the same location as I had the Martin Logan Ethos speakers and the Odysseys previous to them. The listening area is about 18 X 24 feet with the speakers positioned 12 feet apart and 16 feet from my listening spot. From the standpoint of the often discussed equilateral triangle recommendation this is not ideal but I really have very little latitude.

Regarding toe-in, with the ML's I used their suggestion of the "flashlight method" as a starting point but for "conventional" speakers several articles suggest using directions given by the manufacturer. The speakers that I'll be using, though, are old, having been manufactured in the mid 90's and I have no manual for them.

I don't know if it makes a difference for the purpose of this discussion, but these new speakers are the original Serie Reference MMC 3A's manufactured in France. They're a mid sized speaker with a rating range of 40-20,000Hz which would accommodate most of our listening requirements but I also purchased a used Polk Audio Micropro 4000 sub woofer to use with them.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
128x128broadstone
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
In a perfect world, along the lines of an anechoic chamber, one would discover that the best toe in is no toe in. Toe in preferences are the result of all the room anomalies.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
310 posts
 
Ok and thanks. I ordered the recommended items and have temporarily settled on 15 ft speaker separation with very slight toe-in. It sounds good and I imagine that there will be an acclimation curve having left the world of electrostats. The Ethos and MMC Serie are both great speakers just different. Besides, in many ways I think the monitors are going to be easier to deal with in several ways including having more latitude in amplification choices. BTW, I temporarily connected the Serie's directly the 80W Peachtree Nova which I normally use as a preamp to the Peachtree 220 and could could tell very little difference; trying the same with the ML Odysseys or Ethos' produced a not so acceptable result.
timlub
2,041 posts
 
I've seen a few inaccuracies posted. If a speaker has a perfectly flat response and reasonable time & phase alignment a full tow in works well, especially in room with a lot of problems, the full tow in helps keep the frequencies from rebounding off sidewalls by aiming directly at your ears... often you can look at graphs of a speaker and see frequency peaks, in this case, almost always, you will find a soother frequency response off axis and a slight tow or straight frontal view helps a bunch.. So unfortunately, there is not absolute. Not knowing your speakers, I always suggest a full tow in, pointing at your ears... left speaker pointed at left ear, right at right ear, not crossing. If there are any peaks or maybe your soundstage is not wide enough, from there, start turning them outward, just a few degrees at a time. I would put something on the sofa back behind your head and measure outward marking the points at which your speakers should point... you will very quickly zone in on your preference.
I hope this helps, Tim
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
310 posts
 
Thanks, Tim. That's almost exactly the toe-in I used for the transducers and what you say makes sense. I do have a difficult room with an additional issue re a partial wall near, behind and to the right of my listening position. The effect that this has is dramatic when listening to out of phase test tones; as I move from the front wall back toward my spot, the sound migrates to the right. I assumed that the wall was at least a contributor to this phenomenon and more exaggerated toeing did help.
beemerrider
63 posts
 
I subscribe most nearly with Timlub's recommendation. Keep in mind that the vast majority of speakers are designed to produce a flat frequency response when measured on axis. This means that the more the speaker is turned off axis the less flat the frequency response will be. In most cases there will appear a dip in response at the crossover point between the drivers. I get my best results with my speakers very nearly pointing right at me but with slight toe-out as this provides a little more sense of spaciousness. If pressed to give an absolute recommendation I would suggest setting them up so you are on the verge of seeing the the inward sides of the cabinets. This is my experience in my smallish room with stand-mounted Usher BE-718s.
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