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LONDON Decca, Tzar DST and similar cartridges

I have always been curious about these phono cartridges and the Stereophile review of the Tzar DST has heightened my interest. When I read about the peculiarities of these cartridges, I am put off from trying them. Can anyone offer persuasive reasons to try them and also provide real practical advice on how to make them work reliably?  Tonearm suggestions? Phono preamp suggestions? Damping recommendations? How badly do they grind out record grooves?  Any other words of advice? Thanks. 
kmccarty
normansizemore
601 posts
 
I have the Decca London, and use it with a Grace 747 tonearm.  Everything you've read is true.  It has a unique sonic presentation, and I haven't found anything that it doesn't play well.  
That said, you will still want to use other cartridges.  My personal favorites are the Nagaoka MP-11 Boron, and a Denon 103R.
If you keep your record clean you won't have an issues with the Decca.  I hear stylus wear is an issue, but can't comment on that as I haven't had my long enough to notice.. A sonic gem..
Norman
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
10,281 posts
 

Some other arms people have found to work well with Deccas and Londons: The Arm by David Fletcher (designer of the original SOTA table); Mission Mechanic (a U.K. arm similar to The Arm); Fidelity Research FR-64/66; Keith Monks (a somewhat rare U.K arm---I've never seen one for sale); Eminent Technology or other air bearing straight tracker (Kuzma perhaps?); Decca International (no surprise there, ay?! It's a unipivot, though).

The long-held common wisdom was the design liked a damped unipivot arm, which London still recommends. I really dislike them ergonomically, however (the left-to-right-"floppiness". Plus, I'm not convinced highly modulated grooves are not capable of rocking the cartridge and hence rotating the arm tube about it's center, if you see what I mean).

The other belief was that the arm should be of higher than rather lower mass, for those who, unlike halcro, believe in getting the arm/cartridge resonance to around 10-12 Hz. After discussing the matter with Robert Levi (he recommends an arm with a lower "moment of inertia", i.e. mass), I entered the mass figure of the London Reference and Rock outrigger hardware (17.5g total) into the arm/cartridge resonant frequency calculator on The Vinyl Engine site, and was surprised by the results. Any arm is going to be a compromise, as the lateral and vertical compliances of the cartridge differ (15 and 10, respectively). Straight tracking air bearing arms have different moving mass figures, but I'm not sure if it's in the right direction (lateral versus vertical), or the opposite. The calculator suggested an arm with rather low moving mass for the 17.5g figure, like 8-10g, to achieve the 10-12 HZ figure.

Whether or not one is concerned with achieving any certain resonant frequency figure, a stiff self-damped arm tube (Geoffrey Owen claims his Helius arms are self-damped by means of their differential mass design) or externally applied damping is highly advisable, and all cartridges benefit from good bearings, none more so than the Decca/London. The massive amount of mechanical energy the cartridge passes down the arm tube and into those bearings is really going to put them to the test!

ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
normansizemore
I have the Decca London, and use it with a Grace 747 tonearm. Everything you’ve read is true. It has a unique sonic presentation, and I haven’t found anything that it doesn’t play well.


Hi normansizemore

I am referencing your Reel to Reel thread here

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/reel-to-reel-uses

and my post is specifically in reference to 15 IPS master tape dubs.

When you say for the Decca London " it has a unique sonic presentation"

In your experience how does "unique" relate to the sonic presentation of 15 IPS master tape dubs.

thanks.
normansizemore
601 posts
 
ct0517,

That's a great question. In my experience a 1/2 track 15ips master tape is a close to live as I've ever heard. However the Decca really does a fantastic job of simulating a tape. 
We've all heard 'dynamic, sweet, rich,robust,liquid,wet' sounding cartridges. What is unique about the Decca is the rendering of tones. I love jazz trios, I know the sound of live drums, bass and piano. When I play the Decca, it doesn't add accentuation or color to the music. (Most of us actually are very uses to hearing our music colored in some manner).  You can close your eyes and visualize the trio playing like never before. You hear the true piano overtones, the resonance of the upright bass and the real impact of the drums. Nothing is unnatural, which it what makes it unique. Many of my audio friends prefer other cartridges but I believe this is because they are not very familiar with live music. This cartridge sounds live. 
I've listened to old Deccas, new Deccas and three different models. The presentation is the same. If you enjoy live music you'll love what these will do for your record collection. 
Norman
kmccarty's avatar
kmccarty OP
99 posts
 
Thanks for all the great responses. In the meantime, I have done some more background work based on your responses. I use Graham Phantom Elite and SME V and SME V-12 arms, and both have advocates for use with the Decca/London cartridges. The Decca/London manufacturer leans toward (but doesn’t necessarily recommend) the Graham, apparently because it is a damped unipivot, and Ken Kessler likes the SME, which can be damped at the choice of the user. The good news for me, dampened by Warren Gregoire’s assessment below, is that I don’t have to buy an arm in order to try the cartridge, unless you Decca/London users believe these arms would compromise the sound. Secondly, I found that my phono preamp can accommodate the loading and capacitance that halcro recommended. That’s a relief!

Thirdly, I spoke to Warren Gregoire, who didn’t like any of my turntables (Basis Debut and Technics SP 10 MK3, the Technics with Bill Thalmann overhaul, Krebs modifications, and Porter plinth) and none of my arms and especially disdained my turntable stands (Symposium Isis), because they are spring loaded to overcome acoustic feedback and footfall problems in my second floor stereo room. Just to be clear, he didn’t like my equipment for use with the Decca London cartridges rather than making any universal judgments. So that conversation left me wondering about any prospect for success with these cartridges and my equipment.

But, if I do take the plunge, which should I try? The London Reference? The London Decca Jubilee? The Super Gold, Gold or Maroon? After all of his reservations, Warren Gregoire suggested I try the Jubilee and then quickly explained his return policy in some degree of detail. He felt my equipment probably wasn’t good enough to realize the benefits of the London Reference. Your thoughts about the differences among these cartridges?
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