Jazz for aficionados

Acman3:

Very nicer tune. I have three CDs by Pullen.

'Live...Again', 'Kele Mou Bana' and 'Random Thoughts'. I will give them another listen and rerport.

The CD 'Breakthrough' that the clip was from, is now offered by 'these sellers' for $443.51 new! So I probably won't have that one.

Nice tune. Thanks.

Cheers

"There are two kinds of music, good music and the other kind" - Duke Ellington

I think a certain idea is getting lost in these discussions. Well, at least the idea that I tried to bring forth about the "nuts and bolts" part of music appreciation. The idea that disregard for, lack of interest, or ignorance of that aspect of music is somehow a higher calling, or that it leads to a deeper emotional connection to music is simply mistaken. It is not a prerequisite for the appreciation of music (obviously), but it can do nothing but enhance the emotional experience, and helps us be a better judge of the good and the bad.

On a more personal note, and this is something that every musician feels strongly about is the obvious (if cliched) truth in Duke's comment. I listen to everything, there is no genre of music that doesn't have the good and the bad; and I confess that I find it remarkable (and this is not meant to offend) that anyone can feel so passionately about a particular genre (any genre) and dismiss the incredible beauty in Kathleen Battle's singing, even if that genre is not the preferred genre. We all have our likes and dislikes, but like Duke said....Anyway, I strongly encourage all to be more open to this idea.

The "My Favorite Things" comparison. Orpheus, at first I thought it was a joke; it's like being asked to compare grandma's chicken soup to a spicy Cajun gumbo. I am not sure where to begin. One is a vocal rendition, the other is an instrumental version in which the tune is almost inconsequential; it's simply a vehicle for the players' improvisation within that tune's framework. On the vocal version you have classic production values and orchestration coupled to Andrews' charming and mildly theatrical singing; impeccable in the nuts and bolts considerations of pitch, control, and beauty of tone while (even more importantly) conveying the perfectly appropriate feeling of innocence that the lyric demands. A timeless, classic, and beautiful vocal rendition with an orchestration full of subtlety and restraint; what is there not to like? Coltrane's version could not be more different. His ascerbic and raw tone on the soprano gives this version an almost surreal quality. There is not much of an "arrangement" to speak of and obviously no orchestration. The rhythm section lays down a waltz feel very different from that in the vocal version, being much more swinging and not as appropriately light and buoyant. As I said, more than anything, a vehicle for improvisation which is done in typical Coltrane fashion; reaching, searching, with a sense of purpose that is typically Trane.

Grandma's chicken soup may not be as interesting as a Cajun gumbo, but man, there sure was perfection and comfort in that chicken soup; in its own way, a thing of beauty. Love that Cajun gumbo, but it could give me heartburn like the chicken soup never did. All in all, as far as the MUSIC, the emotion, both equally valid and good.

BTW, I don't tire of that story; I am envious as hell. I look forward to your comments about the two versions of MFT.

"“I believe in things that are developed through hard work. I always like people who have developed long and hard, especially through introspection and a lot of dedication. I think what they arrive at is usually a much deeper and more beautiful thing than the person who seems to have that ability and fluidity from the beginning. I say this because it’s a good message to give to young talents who feel as I used to.” - Bill Evans

The Frogman:

******The idea that disregard for, lack of interest, or ignorance of that aspect of music is somehow a higher calling, or that it leads to a deeper emotional connection to music is simply mistaken.*******

I love it when you make your 'teaching points'. But in this case, no one has taken the position you stated. We all appreciate the 'nuts & bolts'. It's what makes Music, Music. Without them, music would just be a random collection of sounds. There could be no such thing as 'genre'. But we do get your point.

I guess it boils down to which is more important to the consumer. Since most of us wouldn't know 'nuts & bolts' if they fell on us. :)

In my field, we would call it being schooled in the military arts. Just having a lot of men and weapons is not enough. You must know when and how to deploy them.

As always, you just don't talk, you inform.

Cheers

In a previous post I said that Mahalia Jackson could make a person cry and that the Divas could not. I was wrong. Listening to the 'Great American Spirituals' now. Florence Quivar!!!!! Being a Mezzo, her voice is ideally suited for this type music. WOW! What a voice!
What Voices!!!

Cheers

No "teaching points" offered, Rok; just trying to offer a perspective that I feel will enhance the listening experience. You see, from my perspective, the problem is that you and others want to be able to make proclamations about what is "the best", "the worst", "empty", "not jazz" etc. based only on personal likes and dislikes, and then when there is disagreement and the comment is challenged no substantive argument is made for why the original proclamation should stand. Every single time (well, probably not EVERY, but close) that I have disagreed or agreed with the merit of a particular artist or recording I have offered specific and detailed reasons why, with specific examples that are not rooted in opinion and emotional reaction only. Example: if a player is not making the changes of a tune, there is really very little room for disagreement. Why you or anyone else should feel more offended, provoked, or whatever you want to call it than someone who disagrees with a proclamation of "this is the best" is beyond me. But, you are right, I don't just talk. That's the problem; there's too much that is simply talk with little purpose other than self gratification. I don't consider that a discussion.

****I guess it boils down to which is more important to the consumer. Since most of us wouldn't know 'nuts & bolts' if they fell on us. :)

In my field, we would call it being schooled in the military arts. Just having a lot of men and weapons is not enough. You must know when and how to deploy them.****

As usual, you make my point; in more ways than one. You can't have it both ways. There IS a tendency to dismiss the importance of the nuts and bolts (man, am I starting to regret using that term a while back!), and that IS usually accompanied with the implication that because someone does "have a lot of men and weapons" that person "doesn't know when and how to deploy them". That attitude becomes a simple excuse and justification born out of some insecurity, for not "having enough men and weapons". It's very easy to always fall back on "well, it's what I like, so that's enough". But, enough for what? What's the point of your "reviews" if your comments can't be backed up with more than just opinion and expressions of what you happen to like? Tell me then, at what point is it OK to point out that the alto saxophone referred to in a posted clip is not an alto at all, but a tenor? That by any reasonable standard, when judging the merit of a performance, the fact that the tempo of a tune slows down dramatically beginning to end, it should be pointed out? That any jazz "aficionado" should know when a tune's chorus ends, and strive to be more than one of those clueless listeners in jazz clubs who start applauding before the player finishes his solo?

The irony here is that these attitudes go completely counter to what the very players that you idolize hold dear; especially the commitment to always want to learn more and more about the music they love and that the best way to do so is to play with players that can challenge them? Anyway, I suspected that at some point these discussions would start to get a little too personal and tense for comfort. That is unfortunate