Tonearm recommendation

Dear ct0517: Your self experiences about needs no further explanations and as you said that FR ( worst in the 66 because its higher non damped mass. ) showed that LF resonance ( read: DISTORTIONS. ) and that’s was what you was more sensitive aware but that kind of distortions happen in all the frequency spectrum alongn its harmonics distortions in a non damped tonearm.

In can bring now another " fatal " experience through an agoner that I did not want it to post because in this thread are at least to gentlemans that because they feel not good enough builded a " superhero " ( that’s what ignorance can makes when we have not self arguments. ) that is that FR seller.

In this agoner experience this gentleman the in good faith audiophile not only bought the FR tonearm but it boughts a new cartridge and tonearm cable under that " superhero " advise to make in the audiophile system a test to prove that the FR tonearm makes dust the ET2 tonearm that the agoner owned in those times and not only that but this gentleman followed any single advise from the " superhero " to make the set up. Here it’s the final result posted by the ET2 owner who invested big dollars to made that test:


""""" First of all, I want to say thanks to Dertonarm for starting me on this journey and all of the help he gave me in setting up my arm. As some of you recall, I purchased a Fidelity Research FR64s, a NOS Orsonic headshell, and an AQ LeoPard tonearm cable. This was all mounted on a new armboard on my VPI TNT table. After I had removed the ET-2 from the TNT and while I was waiting for the new arm and all of the other parts to arrive, I went ahead and did some maintenance to the TNT. I removed the bearing assembly and took it to a machinist for inspection. He didn’t like the fact that there was .004 clearance between the spindle and bushing. He pressed out the old bushings, machined new ones, line bored them, and pressed them in. There is now .001 clearance between the spindle and the new bushings. The machinist also micro polished the spindle, cleaned all of the remaining parts, put in new oil, and declared it finished. Dertonarm was emphatic that I install the FR64s 231.5 mm from the spindle to the center of the bearing instead of 230mm as the manual recommends (as well as the template FR provide with the arm. The machinist made a tool from barstock that fits over the spindle of the TNT and has a hole drilled at the other end with the center at exactly 231.5mm. He machined a tramel point that fits in the hole so you can mark the armboard with the exact spot for the correct distance. This tool was used on my new armboard and the hole was precisely drilled for the FR64s. I used the Dennesen Soundtracker to set up the cartridge as recommended by Dertonarm and VTF was set using a digital scale. I have the SDS for my TNT and speed was checked and set using the KAB strobe. I am telling you all of this so that you understand that I went through great pains to install this arm correctly. The cartridge I used during this time was my almost new Benz Glider SL.

I found the FR64s much more difficult/time consuming to set up compared to other pivoted arms I have used over the years. Some of you may disagree, but this is my experience. Most pivoted arms, once you have the cartridge installed, you slide on the main counterweight, make sure the anti-skating is set to zero, move the counterweight until the arm floats level, set the counterweight scale to 0, and then turn it until you have the correct VTF and bingo-Jed’s a millionaire. Then you set your anti-skating for whatever makes your socks roll up and down, and your pretty much done. After that you just start dialing your cartridge alignment in with your favorite alignment jig and readjust your VTF. Not so with the FR64s. The FR64s has a main counterweight, a dynamic stabilizer weight, and an anti-skating weight that all must be installed. I am not going to go through all of the necessary steps to get this arm set up, but trust me, if you have never set up a FR64s, it is more difficult than your average pivoted arm that I am used to. Again thanks to Dertonarm for all of the help during this process and Syntax offered some help to me as well which I also appreciate.

Before I removed the ET-2 I broke out a NOS Maxell UD 35-180 tape (I love this tape by the way). I recorded a selection of songs (at 15 ips 2 track on my Otari MX-55)that would showcase the FR64s arm’s ability to boogie in the bass as well as track the many dynamic swings that many of these cuts have. I recorded the following songs:

Lyle Lovett-My baby don’t tolerate
Lucinda Williams-Righteously
Herb Alpert-Rotation (from the MoFi version)
Talking Heads-Burning down the house
Herbie Hancock-Rocket (from the 12" single)

After I had the FR64s installed for about a week and had it as tweaked out as I knew how to make it, I re-recorded the above selections in reverse order on the same tape. That way at least I had one cut that would play back to back.

Now some of you had sent me emails asking if I had any preliminary findings to share and I demurred. I never claimed to have the fastest ears in the west so I like to take my time and make sure I know what I am talking about so I don’t have to eat a plateful of crow later (which I have certainly done before). Well, the jury is in for me, and it is my opinion that the ET-2 is much the better arm. The only thing the ET-2 gives up to the FR64s is a bit of bass punch, but I don’t think the bass from the 64s sounds as natural as that from the ET-2. The bass from the 64s almost seems detached from the rest of the music if that makes any sense. There is a myth that linear tracking arms don’t have good bass or can’t reproduce the bottom octave at all. This is nonsense in my opinion. I can speak for the ET-2 and tell you confidently that it reproduce great bass............--.-..........-.-..

In closing, I know that the FR64s is not the most expensive pivoted arm in the world and some of you may sniff your upturned nose and say I should have used a "better" arm. I am really not going to listen to any of that drivel. I spent around $3K setting up this experiment and I know that the FR64s is considered a damn fine tonearm which is why I bought it. ..............

I reinstalled my ET-2 last night and I haven’t stopped grinning since. .....
I stayed up until way-late o’clock last night because I just didn’t want to stop listening to music. Over and out . """""


Chris, there is no doubt that a non damped or not well damped all metal lon tonearm can’t be a " DISTORTIONS GENERATOR ".

That some persons like it is only because they are not trained to discriminate about. That’s why the post answering you where that that LF resonance does not exist in his experiences with. So what is happening with that gentleman, easy: his ignorance level is way diferent from yours or the other agoner experience I posted here and diferent from my ignorance level.

Sad to say it but for me it's clear that wrm0325 can't discriminate about distortions.

Your ET is a champ and as I told you in your thread an icon in the tonearms history.

Regrads and enjoy tyhe music,
R.

Another example of Raul's inexhaustible supply of EGO.

You seem to have ALL the answers.

The rest of us should just go home.

For the record, I find my FR66s to be the easiest tonearm to set up that I have ever used. AAMOF, I don't see how it could be easier. Everything just snaps, STS, into place. My JMW-10 and Jelco arms were significantly different and more time consuming.

Isn't it funny ( actually, it's not  ) that Raul quotes one example of someone whose experience supports his mantra ( and this is nothing against ct0517 ) and he declares it the law of the land. Well Raul, if we were to take a poll on the way you call this issue, I'm going to guess the numbers would not be to your liking.

WHO CARES ?  We all judge things by what our ears tell us. The problem is, when our ears don't agree with yours you call us WRONG and you are automatically right.

You've made your point, you don't much care for the steel versions of the FR series of arms, so unless you wish to CONSTRUCTIVELY add some thoughts to my next paragraph., please stay away.

OK guys, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. Very, very much appreciated. But the story goes on.

It appears my budget has been increased to the 10K area, so I'm sure this is going to murky the waters somewhat. But that budget increase opens up a whole new world, STS, of tonearms available to my use. The Durands, Reeds, and others come to mind. Since I'm getting old, and this will be my last analog purchase ( probably except maybe for a cartridge change ), I want to get it right.

So, given the increase in the ceiling of my budget, any new thoughts on whether to keep the FR66s or go with a modern arm w/ the budget topped at 10K ? Linear trackers, of course, would be considered, as long as they can be mounted on the Blackbird w/o difficulty. Also, the ultimate arbiter is the sound quality, not ease of set-up or changing cartridges or anything else. Just the sound quality of the arm and its ability to get out of the way for the cartridge to do it's thing, STS.

Again, many, many thanks, and enjoy the music.

Cheers,                         Crazy Bill

OK Crazy Bill....you've piqued my curiosity....
I originally took your Thread at face value as someone, although not at novice stature....seeking the advice of more experienced audiophiles.
But your answers on this Forum, and your descriptions of your equipment and experiences display the fact that you are way beyond novice stature and appear in fact. just as experienced as those to whom you address your query...
And then the question arises.....who on this planet owns a Fidelity Research FR66s tonearm (which today, costs in excess of $8,000 used...if you can find one) other than an experienced audio connoisseur..❓👀 
Are you having a lend of us...because if you own an FR-66s, you KNOW how good it is⁉️
Despite my doubts....I will still continue to treat your Post as legitimate for the time being 🤓

It is impossible today, to audition all the equipment one is considering purchasing, in one's own system.
This is especially so with tonearms and cartridges, and we all become more reliant on Reviews and others' experiences to help guide us to a 'Short List'.
The problem with Reviewers is that with Analogue in particular...there are only one or two who have heard the very best turntables, tonearms and cartridges in their reference systems. And even then.....it is only the latest and current equipment which they have heard because of their employment conditions with Audio publications.
This means that the great vintage analogue equipment of the past 40 years is generally unheard by these two reviewers...and let there be no mistake....the greatest turntables of the past (like the Garrards and Thorens, the EMT idlers, the Micro Seiki heavy belt-drives and the classic uber Japanese direct drives) have not been bettered by modern decks.
The same situation exists for the great vintage Japanese tonearms and also the great vintage cartridges like the Ortofon SPUs, EMTs and Fidelity Research FR-7 series but especially the MMs which reached their zenith 35 years ago and are generally forgotten....not only by reviewers...but also by the great unwashed masses 😂
So who can one rely on for advice about tonearms and cartridges...?
A successful professional tonearm designer/manufacturer would be one I would heed, as he would have listened to many in his pursuit for excellence. That's why Harry Weisfeld's advice to keep the FR-66s speaks volumes despite his understandable attachment to his own brand.

Another course...and one I have followed....is to find an  audiophile so dedicated and unrestricted in his pursuit for the 'best'..that he has listened to (and owned) ONLY the very best audio equipment from every age and manufacturer ever made 👅
And if you find two or three such fanatics via the Internet, you will see a general thread of agreement in their ultimate choices.
http://audiocirc.com
This is the Blog of Thuchan who is a Bavarian audiophile who currently owns 71 cartridges, has literally owned dozens of tonearms and even dozens of turntables.
A close examination of the equipment he owns (and has owned) is convincingly mind-boggling.
He has no agenda other than the pursuit of excellence....and as far as I am concerned, he has done a lot of my audio 'sifting' for me.
There is no possibility that I will ever have the opportunity to hear all the tonearms and cartridges that Thuchan has...so why not take advantage of his experiences.

If you want good objective experienced advice Crazy Bill....you should find yourself a Thuchan 👍

Halcro
The Dynavector is a monster of an arm (1.5Kg) and does not fare well mounted on sprung turntables or those with flimsy armboards. A massive separate armpod is ideal for this tonearm....and is recommended by Dynavector themselves.
I don’t know whether you mounted both arms identically Chris....but if you did, perhaps there is a fault with one or both arms?

No faults worked as designed Henry. My DV505 and the FR64s was mounted on a 100 lb Jean Nantais TT. but you already knew that.

Halcro - I find no significant differences in the frequency response (from top to bottom) between the two..

Interesting - did you not also say in another forum that you found no differences between your Belt and DD turntables too?

You know, during my Audiophile Turntable Bedlam phase - I found differences between idler, belt, thread and DD in my room. All I can say Henry would be what I already said on your virtual page - look to your speaker placement.

btw - I did not say or refer to frequency response (top to bottom) in my last post. I was discussing differences in DB levels at low frequencies (45 to about 70 hz) with the 57’s.

nandric - Well I nearly forget how those work because I use (one of) my FR-64 continual. It is more than a tonearm it
is a love affair.

I think Nicola likes his FR64 so much because when he lets the cuing lever down, its slow movement before it touches the vinyl, gives him time to top up with Slivovitz (grin)

Nicola - that bottle I told you about containing what looks like water is still untouched. Does it age well ?