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Thinking of moving from AVR to pre/pro and amp

Disclaimer: I don't know what I don't know. I do not have any major complaints with my current system which I will detail later, but I do know it doesn't sound as close to "live" performances as I'd like. Having read many threads, I believe that moving to separates will help in this area, but I may not have the best reading comprehension. I need your expertise.

My system is used 90/10 TV or DVD/Music, so that's another issue. However, when we play music we tend to really play music. We had the Wadia ipod transport running 12 hours/day over the time between Christmas and New Years, so there are long stretches of listening opportunties. I ran a great number of CDs through my Oppo 95 during this stretch too. Last year I only ran CDs as I didn't have the Wadia (I use Apple Lossless files in the ipod).

There is no option to have a separate music only room or second system no matter how much I'd like to. I have spousal asthetic and ease of use issues to contend with so therefore, whatever I buy must be black and work with my Harmony 1000 touch screen remote.

My upgrade budget is miniscule, <$2k. Used equipment is fine. No HDMI switching is fine as I already am dealing with that now.

My current system is a Rotel RSX 1056 receiver, Oppo 95 running analog 5.1 to the Rotel for audio and video via HDMI to the Sony Bravia XBR IV LCD TV. DirecTV DVR runs digital audio to the Rotel and video via HDMI to the Sony. Oppo 95 plays the CDs through the 5.1 analog cables, though in stereo mode. I use a Wadia transport to run analog into the CD input of the Rotel.

Speakers are B&W LCR6 S2's up front and B&W in ceiling surrounds out back. Two Velodyne SPL10 subs handle the lower frequencies (iirc, I cross over at 100 hz).

I currently can locally get a consignment sale 1-owner Arcam AVP700/P1000 setup for what seems to be a reasonable price ($1350 firm), or I could get a new Emotiva setup with their pre/pro and the 200wpc 5-channel amp for my <$2k budget (albeit not the newest pre/pro with balanced outputs as it isn't out yet and it would stretch the budget too far anyway).

The Arcam P1000 has an advantage in that I can use the extra 2 channels for my patio speakers and sell my ancient SAE 50wpc amp as there seems to be a demand for these on ebay (or there used to be). Not a deal maker, but a plus. Emotiva stuff comes with a warranty and a 30 day trial period, which could be a huge plus. Buying black end plates for the Emotiva is a minus, but not a deal breaker.

I like the warm sound of the B&W/Rotel combo, but it lacks *something* that I can not put words to. I'm hoping moving to more power and a better processor will open this up a bit. For instance, on my current system solo piano music sounds nice, but I just do not *feel* it like I do when someone plays a nice piano live. Same with vocals, they are just not there for me through this system. Norah Jones 'come away with me' is a bit thinner sounding than I'd like is an example that comes to mind.

Damn the new performing arts center and its excellent acoustics! I used to be more ok with the sound that I have. However, after a season seeing a bunch of live shows including performers like Botti and also The Tenors, I find it wanting (sub-note/humble brag: if you saw the Tenors lead with your heart PBS special over the holidays, you saw my wife and I in the crowd shots more than once). I also listen to Rush, Steely Dan, and even (please don't laugh) Jim Brickman. Eclectic tastes.

My room probably does not help at all with 12' ceilings, big open spaces, tile floors with one 12x12 area rug and leather furniture. Additional room treatments outside of possibly an area rug under the dining room table at the far end of the room are unlikely. See wife comment above.

Is it worth dropping money on either the Arcam or Emotiva setup?

Speaker changes are unlikely unless they would match the width of the LCR 6's for the front L&R. Center channel space is limited by the HDTV stand.

The Emotiva would allow me to run HDMI and clean up my cable runs a bit, though I do like the processing the OPPO does (over my last Blu Ray player).

Maybe I should just pay for better seats at the performing arts center?

Thanks for reading all this and I appreciate your help.
admranger
internetmin
258 posts
 
I'm going to throw out some questions to you so that I can understand your situation better:

1) What are you doing with speaker placement? I mean with both the B&W and Velodyne subs. The lack of punch--especially if you are crossing over at 100--sounds to be like a speaker placement issue. Your Rotel model doesn't have room correction, so you may have some room issues.

2) 100 is a high crossover. I'm not super-familiar with your LRC setup, but if the speakers don't go down below 100, then my strong hunch is that the source of your 2-channel dissatisfaction is with your speakers and not your AVR.

3) If your room is as large as I think it is (can you confirm size and distance that you sit from the mains?), then I think your speakers simply cannot move enough air in your current space.

In my particular case, I was running Revel M22 for years paired with a Revel B15 sub (I'd use crossover settings between 80-50). They are absolutely fantastic speakers and a killer 2.1 channel setup for stereo. However, I too felt like I was missing something in stereo listening but had no complaints in 7.1 multichannel. When I spoke to a local dealer and a few others, they clued me into the fact that the speakers were likely too small for my setup--I'm in a large room and sit 14 feet from the speakers. Piano especially did not have the weight and depth that I know a "real" piano does.

I played with placement and that helped but I noticed that moving closer made a difference; however when I upgraded my speakers to full-range Revels, all that went away. Wow and I mean WOW what a difference. Now, I had speakers that were able to move enough air and really fill the room. 2-channel has never sounded better and I have absolutely no upgrade itch for the first time in years and years.

So, in your particular case, I have a funny feeling that the issues you are experiencing are a combination of placement and speaker model within your particular room environment and that by exploring those issues more, you may get closer to what you feel you are missing.
soix
9,809 posts
 
I'd also be concerned about the 100Hz setting on the sub (I think your B&Ws effectively go lower than that no?), and I agree playing with that and speaker/sub placement could help quite a bit. That alone could bring significant improvements if you haven't done so, and it's free. But I don't think it will address the image and tonal density issues you mention.

I doubt upgrading the pre/pro and amp will get you what you're looking for either. It may help improve some things, but for what you're looking for I'd start with the speakers. Either the B&W's character isn't giving you what you're looking for or they just simply can't move enough air to bring the weight of instruments/vocals into the room (I suspect a combination of both). A while back I had the opportunity to directly compare several B&W models (up to the 803s) to some competitors, and it was exactly in the areas of tonal expressiveness and weight in the lower mids that didn't let me feel the expressiveness and dynamic/tonal weight of the music as much -- I think similar to what you're experiencing. I'd highly recommend demoing some other speakers in your home and see if they provide more of what you're looking for, then at least you can be a little more confident in what you do next. Trying other brands, maybe smaller floorstanders if possible, or maybe something larger/further up the B&W line would provide some valuable perspective. Best of luck.
admranger OP
144 posts
 
Thanks for the new replies. I understand the integrated amp approach better now.

Oddly enough, the office audiophile snapped to the subwoofer xover point, speaker placement, and speaker size issues just as two of you have. I will get some dimensions of the room and seating position for those who are still interested.

The frequency response specs on the B&W LCR6 S2 are 58-20k hz, if Mr. Google is to be believed. I'd have to check the manual when I get home to be sure. Let's assume it is correct and move on.

On the Rotel, I have the speakers set to small already. I guess the first thing that I should do is change the xover to 80hz (or should I set it at 60hz?). My audiofile co-worker suggested to also try turning off one of the subs to see if the subs are fighting each other or working together (phase issues).

If I see no improvement after doing the above, he recommended that I move the Rotel and 2 of the LCRs, one sub, and the Oppo into a smaller room in the house and see if the issue resolves itself. This goes straight to the speakers being too small for the room. While that would be a major PITA, I was about to embark on a cable tidy-up job on teh system in anticipation of a new HDTV joining the system during the super bowl sales. Besides, if I'm going to spend money, I ought to be sure I'm spending it on the right components. Besides, my wife is on travel this week so it is perfect timing! WAF issues avoided.

If I need to go to a larger speaker, he recommended looking closely at KEFs line. Whatever I do, it'll be a pre-loved speaker set that I buy as new isn't within the budget is my guess.

I have some speaker width limitations due to the media nook size and my new HDTV's width. I also have a potential problem with the fact that the nook is elevated ~18 inches so full sized speakers will have interesting placement issues...WAF does not allow placement of the speakers on the floor in front of the nook unfortunately. More challenges for me to provide to the group, I guess!

Thanks again for everyone's help!
internetmin
258 posts
 
Audio in a room can be complicated if you are trying to identify a certain something and debugging it takes time and a methodological approach. There are really no short cuts. Here is what i would do in your situation:

1) I'd use only a single subwoofer for now. If you haven't calibrated each sub and dealt with phase, etc. then disconnect one sub to make your debugging easier.

2) Absolutely deal with placement and focus on that. Start with the cutover of the sub(s) to be 80hz. That's a standard. You may not end up there, but start there for debugging purposes.

3) How close are your speakers to the back wall? How close to the side walls? Are you speakers PERFECTLY symmetrical with the listening position? Did you use a laser meter or a string to make sure you have both angle and distance correct?

4) Ideally, you want a few feet from the back wall and then again a few feet from the side wall. You can start with the rule of 1/3. Measure the width of the room and then place the first speaker 1/3 of the way so that you can minimize room modes and resonances. Then place the second speaker another 1/3 or 2/3 etc. \

5) You should play with your sub placement using the standard method--crawl method is simplest. Just know that with two subs, a simple rule of thumb is both along front wall between L&R speakers or to have them in the middle of opposing walls.

If I can please give you some advice to keep you sane: don't look to replace any equipment or upgrade any speakers. I have a very strong feeling you have setup and placement issues. Until you address those you have no real idea of strengths and weaknesses of the system. Upgrading equipment right now will NOT solve your problems--it will only frustrate you and cost you $$$. Remember, bad speaker placement will always make you feel like something is wanting or missing.

You really do have good speakers and good gear so you should be getting satisfying music out of the deal.
admranger OP
144 posts
 
Ok, measured the room and the overall dimensions are 34'x34'x12'high. There is a full wall 15' back from the RF speaker that is 8' long (kitchen divide -- holds double ovens, cabinets, etc., etc.) but otherwise unbroken. Big volume to fill. However, the system sits to the very left of the room with only about 6' from the left wall when you fact the system. It's a big open area but the 'great room' is the left 2/3rds of the space. I can send pics to whoever wants to post an email address...

The media niche is a hole in the wall that is elevated 16" off the floor. It is 84" wide, 28" deep, and 66" high. Not ideal which will be reflected when I answer Internetmin's questions below... Excuse the noob responses.

1) As it turns out, I just realized that I'm not running any sub at all in 2-channel mode. Doh! One variable eliminated... I'll have to look at the Oppo's settings tomorrow and see what I've done here.

2) Will do. 80 hz it is as a starting point.

3) The speakers are 17" away from the back wall. That's as far out as I can get them. They are 6" away from the side wall, but the front of the speakers is in front of that side wall (by about 2" or so). The killer is the LF has a fireplace wall coming at a 135 angle towards the listening area so it has about 9" before it hits a nice hard tile surface.

You'll all love this as I've been told; "What you have done is wrong.": My LCR's sit directly on top of the Velodynes. Seemed like a great idea at the time and made a nice symmetrical looking set of speakers. There's a slim chance I could mount the subs elsewhere in the room, probably both to the RF and either stack them or have them side by side at floor level. Alternately I could cut some holes in the 16" raised area and put them facing out, though I'd have to cover said holes with some fabric that matches the wall paint...that could be tricky.

I have the speakers toed in, but it is by eye. I sit 15' back from the speakers. The tweeter in the LCRs (L&R) is 40" off the ground, very close to the height of my ears as I sit in my listening position.

4) My media niche dictates speaker placement quite a bit as you've read. The L&R speakers are 56" apart from the inside of each box as measured at the toed in front. I can move them wider apart, but the wall comes into play then. I really can't move them too much closer as the HDTV gets in the way, and I have a larger one in my future when the super bowl sales hit shortly...

5) I'll have to google those sub placement methods. Hopefully one corresponds to moving them both to an acceptable location given WAF issues. If I move them both to the right I can kinda/sorta have them hidden by a fabric covered chair and out of the way. That's a good thing, WAF-wise.

Thanks for the help. You've given me a lot to think about and try.

FWIW, I was just listening to Brickman's live "My Romance" CD. Track 13, "By Heart" sung by Anne Cochran is a favorite of my wife's, so I use it as a reference when I test things out. I'm going to put in Norah Jone's CD for another test. The OPPO really makes things come alive but I'm still wanting more. Hopefully some simple placement tricks will help.

However, I did stumble across some Aerial Acoustic 7B's that are in my price point and match the decor. I may even be able to audition them if things don't work out with placement tricks. Not sure they'll be matched to my center channel, but they sure get good reviews...
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