Jazz for aficionados

Acman3:

Well if you and The Frogman and O-10 and Learsfool are kindred spirits, it would be more appropiate for me to go. I admit to having a mental block when it comes to Free, Avant-garde and Fusion music. So being the disruptive force, and I admit to that, you stay. You have more to offer this thread than I do.

Apologies to our OP.

Cheers

To the extent that affection for someone can be experienced via dialogue (?) on a forum such as this, Rok, I admit to a sense of it towards your passion for music; I have said so on several occasions. I have "met" few individuals on these forums with the passion that you demonstrate for an admittedly fairly narrow slice of the musical landscape. That would be perfectly fine, but the main obstacle to having reasonable dialogue, debate, whatever we want to call it is that you don't let that very passion for that music stand on it's own. It's like the old saying: "let her go, if it was meant to be, she'll be back (or something like that)". The music that you so love does not need so much of your "protection". Not only does it not need it (as if your "protection" mattered one iota, anyway) it narrows your own horizons and, ironically, violates some of the important tenets of that very music: open mindedness, creativity, forward-looking attitude, evolution, growth, honor the past but always look to the future; THAT is what jazz is. It has been pointed out to you on several occasions that the very musicians that you idolize would look down at the attitude that you demonstrate sometimes. Doesn't that say something to you? Why the arrogance of opinion that you demonstrate? Time and time again you make proclamations about this or that being "better" or "worse", or at worse making comments like those you just made to Acman3 that are totally uncalled for and insulting. He has made some really great contributions to this thread and and deserves better than that. I would respectfully suggest that an apology is in order.

I remember a comment that you made early on in this thread that has always stuck with me; something to the effect that somehow it was inconceivable that someone with a different opinion from yours might "have some insight into music that you don't". Why is that so inconceivable to you? You are severely limiting yourself by not being open to the idea that some may, in fact, have certain insights that you don't. Again, those very musicians that you revere will be the first to tell you that the very reason they got to the point of being worthy of reverence is that they were humble in their knowledge that there is always a lot to learn, and that there are many that do have insights that they didn't. So, I encourage you to take a deep breath, calm down and don't blow an opportunity to grow as a music lover and there is a great deal to learn; a little humility is always a good thing.

Having said all that, Wynton is not God, and I will dare to criticize him. He is a great instrumentalist and a great ambassador for jazz; but he has added little to the evolution of jazz. His undeniable and great contribution is of the "museum" type. "Layla" with Clapton? Please, are you serious? I would respectfully suggest that you are letting your admiration for the man and everything that he represents influence your perception of his musical relevance.

So, I would suggest that everyone take a deep breath, understand that it is the very passion that we feel for music that causes us to act irrationally (I include myself), and get back to the business of sharing great music and hopefully growing in the process.

In the hope that we will be able to do that, I will post what was going to be my next post before I read some of the above.

Now, now, Rok, you promised to "never again". Well, this is one of those times when I have to ask myself: "Do I let that comment go by in the interest of not getting Rok riled up? Or, do I respond to the comment in a way that promotes healthy debate, and take my chances; after all he DID open the door. Hell, we know the answer..... :-) Two issues:

****This reminded me of the Hancock piece****

Huh!? I don't get it, but one's REACTION to music is personal and subjective; good enough for me.
Similarities: instrumental, electric instruments, Latin percussion, same era.
That's where the similarities end and says nothing about style, and overall vibe. Still, it made you think of it; can't argue with that and to think of good music is always a good thing.

****this is better than the Hancock piece****

Is an apple better than a banana?

Not trying to be provocative, Rok; but, that comment demands a comparison of the two. Like you, I love that stuff; but, it is nothing like Herbie's music. Santana's band was very exciting (dynamic range?) like few others, but was clearly coming, first and foremost, out of a rock bag with Latin and funk elements. Herbie's Headhunters were jazz players bringing that sensibility to a funk bag. It's not a question of perfection, the level of improvisation, nuance, and command of harmony is not even in the same ballpark; or, should I say, fruit bowl. So, you like apples more than bananas; no problem there. But, better? Not in my kitchen :-)

BTW, this is THE live version of that Santana tune; amazing time in music history:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AqZceAQSJvc

**** I would respectfully suggest that an apology is in order.****

I Agree!

Acman3: I apologize for any comment I made they you felt was out of place or insulting in any way. It was not my intent.

I will have to use more of these :) :) in my rants to try to convey tone / intent. The statement that started with HOW DARE, was directed at the entire thread. I said 'you people' I should have added a, :).

The solos on Layla and the hundred times thingy, I assumed you were talking about Wynton, because I thought we were talking about the Jazz player. I cannot comment on Clapton's solo because I don't own any music by him except the thing with Marsalis. So it could well be old hat, to everyone else. BTW, I did like Clapton's playing.

I agree with The Frogman, yes it does happen, that you make excellent contributions to this thread. Much more informative and thoughtful than mine. You should post more often. That could be because you engage your brain before you type. I tend to skip that step.

I am not a bully. There are enough of those out in the General Population on Audiogon. That's why I never venture out. I also realize, and consider myself to be, the least informed person on this thread, so I am hardly in a position to try and bully anyone.

Again, I apologize.

Cheers

****Similarities: instrumental, electric instruments, Latin percussion, same era.*****

This is amazing! You nailed it! That's exactly what I thought. Big group, lots of percussion, no singing, and drenched in latin Flavor! 1970's written all over it.

****That's where the similarities end and says nothing about style, and overall vibe.*****

Left that part to you smart guys! :) Maybe I should have used Mongo Santa-Maria's 'Cloud Nine'. More Jazz?

I said it was better than the Hancock piece because, I had already put them in the same bag. Rightly or wrongly. And in the same bag, for me, Santana kicks butt.

****Santana's band was very exciting (dynamic range?) like few others, but was clearly coming, first and foremost, out of a rock bag with Latin and funk elements. Herbie's Headhunters were jazz players bringing that sensibility to a funk bag.*****

Even a pro like you used the word FUNK in a description of both groups. So you can readily see how a novoice like me could get confused and overlook the finer points of the performances. Of course when I hear the word FUNK. I think 'Parliament' or 'James brown and the JB's'. We don't wanna go there.:)

Ideals I carry in my head.

The 1970's were a low point for Jazz. Sterile. I spent most of my time and money on pop and classical. I spent the decade traveling between Germany - Huntsville, AL - El Paso - Huntsville Again - Korea - and Germany Again.

We used to go to our favorite Korean bar and listen to the Stone's 'Sympathy for the Devil', all night!! Slim Pickings, but Better than nothing.

Not exactly fertile grounds for Jazz, except for the record stores in Germany. The whole thing was like a blur, a lost decade for me.

O-10 was correct to mention that 'Bitches Brew' started the decade. A harbinger of things to come. A Jazz date that will live in infamy!:)

Cheers