Jazz for aficionados

I will have to do a lot more listening to Bowie, before I can do anymore talking about him. I think I might like this guy. I dismissed the first clip sent by Acman3. It was not representative and obviously done in jest.

But the Cosby clip was not bad. He also played with a group led by a guy, that played trumpet with me in high school! So, he can't be all bad. :)

Frogman: A lot of the stuff you wrote about Bowie and players like him, in your last post, could apply to Mingus!! And in my humble opinion, no one, out ranks Mingus! So maybe Bowie is a person I need to hear more. I will put him on my list, right after Fats Naravvo.

Thanks for the time and effort.

Cheers

You are welcome. I would only add that I think humor and "in jest" are two different things. I suspect Bowie was deadly serious about what he played in that clip.

Curly: Hey Moe, I can't see, I can't see!

Moe: What's the matter porcupine, what's the matter?!

Curly: I got my eyes closed! Ynuk, ynuk.

Interesting and good comments from everyone - this is definitely the best thread this site has ever had.

Acman - you mention Bowie's humor, which is undeniable, and speak of him quoting the tradition, as well as playing outside of it. I guess what I am saying is that I do not hear him as ACTUALLY being outside of it at all, based on what I have heard here - he is merely using humor to pretend to be outside, which to me makes him very hypocritical if he is criticizing folks like Wynton. But this isn't about Wynton.

Frogman, again I agree with almost all of your post, especially the statement that rhythmic feeling is fundamental to all music. I agree this is unarguable. I also agree that Bowie does have this great sense of it, as do the other trumpeters discussed in your post.

I also agree that Bowie is humorous, unpredictable, and theatrical, based on the clips here. Here is where I disagree: for me, this humor and theatricality is as far as he goes. He is a performer putting on an act, much like many pop artists do - his playing/music making ON ITS OWN would not be enough to make it in his case, despite his good timing. I would disagree that he is actually furthering the art of jazz music, hence my earlier comment that he is hypocritical to criticize others for not being so. He may tell a good story, but so do many others. It is fun and entertaining on the surface, but for me it remains surface (and by the way, I would NOT argue that music must be serious to have substance, this is not what I mean at all). And I still fail to see how any of these clips show he is "outside the tradition". A great many other jazz musicians used humor, including Armstrong and Wynton (though in his case almost always without the irreverence). I don't think there is anything particularly novel in what he is doing in these clips, unless I am missing something. I think this is a case of style masquerading as substance.

Excellent comments, Learsfool; although it may seem otherwise, we have no substantive disagreement. This seeming dichotomy is further highlighted by a couple of interesting things that inadvertently go to the core of the issue. I am literally of two minds about all this, and that is the reason why I think it can be fairly said that we have no disagreement. Being someone who is steeped in the more traditional aspects of being a musician, I admit to an inner conflict concerning my reaction to the non-traditional; in this case, the avant-garde (in general, not just music). That's one mind. The other mind has (slowly) moved away from what at times was (and still is) an unnecessarily rigid view of art to a more accepting attitude that takes into account a changing world with changing attitudes and norms, and a changing view of what is "substance". That changing view of what substance is causes the most conflict for me. Not meaning to digress too much, but please bear with me:

Rap music. I WANT to hate rap. It violates so much of what I have spent so many years studying, respecting, learning and trying to hone. Yet, how does one completely dismiss a movement in music (?) that has had such a huge impact. I seriously dislike it and don't respect it. But, I don't hate it because it had to be; it reflects our culture. We can hate our culture (and in some ways I do) and we can decry the decline of standards in our culture (and art) 'till we are blue in the face, but it won't change the direction of the art (?) that reflects it. Worst of all, we can be so rapped :-) up in hating it that we may miss those rare moments when I do find myself saying: "oh, ok, I get it". How good a job it does of reflecting the culture is what defines its quality; its level of substance. Interestingly, and on a personal note, it has been my twenty year old son, a gifted young film maker and a true artist, who has shown me the value of not so readily dismissing what may not conform to MY standards. I am not talking about an abandonment of standards, but simply being more accepting of a different view of standards. I really believe that is the respect for traditional standards combined with an open mind for the new that creates the healthiest environment for really great art to happen.

The avante-guard in the arts (and I did not mean to suggest that rap is part of the avante-guard) seeks to break-down traditional standards and within this break-down a new set of standards takes shape that define it's "substance". That is not to say that one has to take on a "anything goes" or "it's all equally good" attitude. Not at all; there's still a lot of bullshit out there that tries to pass for art. As far as Bowie goes:

As I said before, truth is that as I don't know nearly enough of his work; but, what I heard in Acman3's first clip, and some of what is on the two records of his that I own, held my interest and made me want to listen to it. That's a lot more than I can say for a lot of what's out there. Does the music of a player who has a perfectly developed tone and schooled technique but sounds like so many before him have more substance? I'm not so sure. I have many recordings of accomplished traditionalists that simply don't hold my attention. Additionally, when someone like Acman3, someone who has clearly shown to have a sophisticated appreciation of music and is not part of "the masses", says "I love Bowie" (or whoever) I have to, at least, stop and consider what it is that is grabbing his attention. I think I heard it in that first clip.

Anyway, didn't mean to get preachy about this . Thanks for the great contributions.