Can SMPS based preamps/amps sound organic ?


Lately I have been reading about some well known companies who make amps and preamps based on switch mode (digital) power supply. Nagra, David Berning, Linn, Crayon Audio comes to mind. I have heard a couple of their products but I always seem to hear some kind of switching noise which comes through as "digital" sounding. The organic quality is somewhat robbed and replaced with some hash. I wonder if there are any designs using SMPS that can actually sound natural and organic ?

To me it seems mostly a matter of convenience to use SMPS but I would love to discuss.
pani
Jaybe,
I'll check that site and read the commentary presented. If the prevailing argument centers around measurements and specifications that won't do it for me.  The bottom line criteria for me is what does it sound like?  Al,  I know you are a technical maven.  Yet I still  believe that you must be satisfied with the sound quality of an audio component before you'd place it  in your system.  I make that assumption based on your current system makeup. 
Charles, 
Charles, yes, as I’ve said in a number of past threads my belief is that specs and measurements can often be useful, but primarily because they can often make it possible to **rule out** components from consideration. In some cases by raising doubt (or worse) as to how suitable a component may be for use in conjunction with other system components. In some cases by raising doubt (or worse) with respect to how suitable a component may be with respect to user requirements (such as a desired maximum volume capability, for example). And in some cases because a spec or measurement that is **too** good (such as extremely low total harmonic distortion, for example) may create suspicion that something else has been compromised to achieve that (such as heavy-handed application of feedback).

But I’m certainly with you in considering sonics to be THE selection criterion once the list of candidates has been narrowed down as much as possible on the basis of specs and measurements, as well as on the basis of cost, physical configuration, manufacturer reputation for support, and other such factors.

Also, as you may have observed over the years, with a few exceptions I usually tend to avoid participating in threads involving ecclesiastical controversies about the superiority or inferiority of one design approach vs. another. Such as might arise with respect to switching vs. linear power supplies. The reason being, as I know you would agree, that what usually matters most is how well a chosen design approach is implemented, not which approach is chosen.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al,
Without a doubt implementation and sheer designer talent are the major determinates of a product's  quality and performance. You are unquestionably wise in avoiding the endless non-productive squabbles that are all too common. I've backed off myself the past couple of years. 
Charles, 
Hi Bombaywalla, hope you are doing well :-)

I started this discussion not because I was imagining things, at least thats what I would like to believe. I had some experiences around SMPS based equipments within my own system. I had a couple of CDP from Linn (Ikemi) and Bluenote, I also had a phonostage which had the option of using an external PSU (where I could try both their SMPS model and Linear PSU model). I also had an opportunity to listen to a very well reviewed amplifier with SMPS. In fact all these equipments are very well reviewed without any mention of any issues around SMPS distortion/noise.

My personal observation though has been different. Since I have heard them all in my own system and that too besides some other non-SMPS based equipments I do not doubt what I felt about them. All of them had the ability to sound faster and more transparent. Air and Resolution also goes up compared to similarly priced equipments with Linear PSU. All this is great hence there is a certain wow factor there. Where things start to fall apart is in some inherent noise/hash/distortion whatever you call it which is not audible as a straight forward graininess or muddiness that we are typically accustomed with linear PSU. It is rather something that affects the tones and presentation which ultimately results in a less relaxed sound. Mind doesnt relax to the music but is always constantly being stirred with whats going on. There is a bit of frown, a bit intrigue, a bit of wow, all mixed up because that distortion or noise however little is neither ignorable nor passable as music, something very similar to distortion/noise of a CD vs LP.

Recently I had an amplifier at home which sounded terrific in many respects, one of the fastest, most well resolved most dynamic amps I have tried. Yes it had a very "advanced" SMPS and thats also its USP. While I was trying to get a hang of its sound I was constantly getting bothered about something that was not "usual". Especially the high frequency on the amp sounded like an early digital CD player, but then my source is a Garrard 301 played back through a Klyne phono + preamp. It is a great analog combo though a bit vintage to some ears. With this amp it sounded like digital media player which has not been fully done up especially in the highs and also in the lows, the bass suddenly reminded me of typical digital bass, which is quite unlike the bottomless analog bass we expect from a good analog source. As I was trying to decipher all this, I played an LP which had some clicks and pops, to my surprise the clicks and pops which I generally find ignorable in some of these LPs now grabbed my attention more than ever. The clicks and pops were sounding like there is some shiny disc being played in my system. They sounded hot, sparkly and sharp like flashes of fire dots. I tried various power cords and ICs especially shielded ones to see if some RFI/EMI is causing it but things remained pretty much the same. That quite nailed things for me and hence I started this thread.

Long time back I read an article which said, when one is listening to an amplifier, he is actually listening to its power supply. It is ubiquitous that all PSU do distort to some extent or other based on various factors. These distortions are definitely different in a Linear PSU vs an SMPS, typical analog vs digital. What it does to the sound is also going to be different. It is just that I find one of them to be much more forgiving and listenable than the other.

Designers probably take their stands based on various factors. They need to wow their customers and investors and get things going to the market quicker than their competiros. The fact that reviewers and most stake holders in the industry accept it without a"frown" probably makes it easy for them. Having said all that I havent heard the Rowlands and Soulution yet.


I'm doing well. thanks for asking. I see that you are also doing well & growing by leaps & bounds as an audiophile. :-)
thanks for your feedback, Pani. Now your original comments make a lot more sense. Would have been nice if you had stated all this in your 1st post to give all of us a background where you were coming from. ;-)
anyway, it looks like we have a variety of opinions on this topic from several owners & listeners.....