Jazz for aficionados

The Frogman:

English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner -- WATER-FIREWORKS

Received this yesterday. It's on 'Authentic' Instruments.
I noticed that the horn sound was much smoother and rounder than the horns on the Proms/French piece. They sounded almost liked modern valved horns.

Is it possible that the French horn players, played the piece exactly as they intended. Could it be that that's the way the horns would have sounded when Handel wrote the piece. The BBC presenter did say the sound would be 'different' to modern ears.

Why isn't all, or at least most, Classical music played on the instruments in use when the music was first written and performed?

Cheers

Excellent questions.

****Is it possible that the French horn players, played the piece exactly as they intended. ****

Unlikely. Choice of volume, blend and tone, possibly. Those are aesthetic choices in part dictated by the conductor. However, out of tune playing is never a desirable choice. The French players were very out of tune; better in tune playing can sometimes be perceived as "smoother". The English Baroque players are simply better players. Having said that, it is probably true that orchestras back then did not demonstrate the often flawless intonation heard from modern orchestras. This is due not only to today's, overall, much higher technical standard on the part of players, but also the superiority of modern instruments. I suppose an argument could be made that "rough-around-the-edges" playing was, in fact, what was often heard back then; but, I would wager that composers back then often cringed and wished that the playing were more refined.

****Why isn't all, or at least most, Classical music played on the instruments in use when the music was first written and performed?****

Assuming the availability of enough period instruments (still intact) to go around (not a safe assumption), playing those instruments presents special challenges to players. These instruments were not fully developed design-wise with fewer (or no) keys or valves in the case of the winds. These same orchestral players would also need to be ready to play more contemporary works that require the sophistication and more complete design of modern instruments without which much of the more modern (1800 or so +) repertory would simply be unplayable. It would be almost impossible for players to keep and stay up to speed on such a wide-range arsenal of different instruments for each historical period of music.

Hi Rok - as the resident horn player, allow me to clarify Frogman's answers (which were good). The period instruments (what we now call "natural" horns), had no valves. So they could only get the notes of the natural harmonic series of the key that the instrument was pitched in. To change the key of the instrument, tubing had to be added or subtracted to it, pieces of tubing called "crooks." To fill in the notes of the scale, the players used a hand technique, which is much easier demonstrated than described - they would "close" the bell of the instrument with their hand, which bends the pitch to the correct note they want. These "stopped" notes have a much more metallic sound - we still do this today, actually, for the sound effect - Mahler in particular wrote a great deal of "stopped horn" notes. With the invention of the valves, this allowed the horn to play chromatically and get any notes needed without hand stopping them, with an even tone quality. I hope this is a decently satisfactory explanation - feel free to ask any questions this brings up, and I will try to clarify.

Most modern players do not have training in the specialized hand technique required to play the period instruments well anymore, only the people who actually play these early instruments would need to learn it. The technique can be demonstrated roughly on a modern instrument, however, which I often do at educational concerts, but I am not really a "natural horn" player.

It is no surprise at all to me, by the way, that the horn players on your Gardiner recording sound much better than the others. The guys in his group are pretty much the best in the world at it, as far as orchestral playing goes, anyway. The French groups are not nearly so well regarded as far as horn playing goes, and this actually goes for the modern instrument as well.

One thing to bear in mind is that in those Handel pieces, there aren't that many "stopped" notes anyway - hence, they will sound much more like modern instruments than they would if they were playing say Mozart or Beethoven, who wrote much more difficult and complicated parts for the horn. If you listen carefully, however, to that Gardiner recording, you will hear the difference between the "stopped" and open tones. Part of the technique is to make the "stopped" notes sound as much like the open ones as is possible, and those guys are really good at it. So they won't sound so metallic, they might sound more "covered" instead. That is a great recording, in fact the best I know of for the natural horn playing.

What do you two musicians think of my fav ensemble,Musica Antiqua Koln ?

The Frogman & Learsfool:

Can't the French get a little love? :) I saw the 'crooks' on the stage floor behind the players at the BBC Proms.

As far as the answers about why playing 'period' instruments would be a problem; it brought to mind the famous exchange between Monk and Coleman Hawkins. :)

Thanks to both of you for your excellent information. Where would we be without your unique perspectives on music and musicians.

Cheers