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Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix
williewonka
3,075 posts
 
Sbank, The USB port circuitry on the Bifrost/Gungnir both utilize power from the computers USB port

DAC's that use power from their own onboard power supply tend to perform so much better than those that use the power from the computers USB port simply because the power being supplied is so much cleaner that that supplied via the computers USB port

So my listening test was as follows...
1. the Bifrost DAC was connected via its USB port to my computers USB port, then...
2. I connected the Vlink192 to my computers USB port, but connected it to the Bifrost with via a digital coax.

#2 was clearly superior. 

Was I wrong to conclude that the USB implementation of the V-Link192 is superior to the that of the Bofrost/Gungnir?

The V-link192 simply converts USB to Coax Digital - and if its USB interface was not superior wouldn't the sound be the same when played through the same DAC?

Both interfaces were powered by the same power supply.
The source USB interface on the computer did not change

The only thing that changed was the USB interface from that on the Bifrost to completely circuitry of the Vlink192

What else could explain this?

I stand by my findings until I am educated otherwise :-)
whitestix OP
716 posts
 
I happen to think that the Oppo gear is really quite good and the 103D, with a bit of mods or even stock, is just very good.  Oppo gear seems to be like Schiit gear, everybody likes it.  It is grand that here are lots of $500-$1000 CD players around today that just sound wonderful.  I am thinking that good DACs can improve the sound even more.  It is amazing the sort of fine system one can cobble together for, say, a couple of grand, that will fill your room with great sounds.  The new ELACs might be part of that kit. Cheers, Mark

maplegrovemusic's avatar
maplegrovemusic
1,113 posts
 
 "On top of that, Sonica DAC is a high-resolution audio player and can decode files directly from a connected USB drive, network shares or NAS drives."

From OPPO website . Does this mean a hard drive full of downloaded music will just be able to be plugged into the oppo ? What might the interface look like i wonder ? 
erik_squires
16,129 posts
 
Hi @psickerson

I’m not sure if all have it, but some Schiits have ASRC. Adaptive Sample Rate Conversion. Most of these processes work by throwing away the original data and recreating it. They map the data coming in to a (hopefully) much more jitter free clock and recreate it, but whether going from 44 to 96 or 96 to 96, the data is completely re-made and the concept of bit-perfect upsampling is thrown out the window. The Wyred4Sound Remedy works like this. It works rather nicely too.

Almost all ASRC processes trade sample accuracy for timing accuracy.

Schiit is unique AFAIK in using "closed form" ASRC, in which they keep all the original samples, while adding interpolated data attempting to gain the timing accuracy without loosing the bit-perfection of the original signal. .

Google "closed form" and "Schiit" and you should find it.

Even so I went with Mytek. :)

Best,


Erik

P.S. Vendors often call ASRC something more cool sounding, like upsampling, resampling or, supreme de-jittering jitter jail. You have to read the details to find out if this is what they are doing.
whitestix OP
716 posts
 
My final post, lads. I had some pals over today whose ears I trust, much younger than me,  all with a mortgage-load of audio gear.  It was easy to switch between the Oppo 103 straight-in to the Don Sach's preamp vs. run through the Channel Islands DAC.  I provided the "ear lube" via a local micro-brew pub for the fellas and it was much appreciated by the feedback.  

The conclusion is clear:  On an A/B test, no listener was able to identify the difference in sound with or without the DAC in any consistent fashion.  Often as not, a listener who thought he could perceive a difference, was surprised to learn that the DAC was out in the loop.  I  personally, switching the selector, might have perceived a 5% difference in improvement in the performance of my system with the DAC, but that might be my desire to validate my expenditure for the DAC.  As I continue to perform this comparison after my pals left, I do think there is a maybe 5% improvement in the sound overall, with maybe a bit more clarity, but it is quite subtle.  

So, the conclusion I have reached is that you have a pretty good DAC, or an Oppo upgraded by somebody (mine was upgraded by Stereo Dave and the upgrade was instantly apparent), the sonic value of a DAC in the sub-$1000 price range might be an expense of dubious value.

BTW, I upgraded pair of Mundorf Silver Oils output caps for Jupiter Copper caps in my preamp at the same time I hooked up the CIA DAC so that might have swayed my initial favorable impression the DAC.  The Jupiters caps are a 10% improvement in the sound of the already excellent Don Sachs preamp -- by far the best I have heard in my system.

Cheers, Mark

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