Jazz for aficionados

Learsfool, I am glad you chimed in about that. I was going to after first reading the comment about Juilliard, but frankly I was almost in a state of disbelief at the comment and all I could muster was my "retort" about Wynton having also attended Juilliard. I certainly agree with your comments.

This topic has come up before in this thread and I am mystified at the apparent insistence that somehow jazz players don't require or, at least benefit greatly from, the kind of study and dedication to music theory, instrumental rudiments, purposeful honing of rhythm via intense practice, and many other ingredients of good musicianship (the nuts and bolts) the way that classical players do; that somehow the authenticity of jazz is diminished if the player does that. Obviously, that is simply not true and points to a very sophomoric understanding of what making music is about. The great jazz players were relentless practicers and voracious students of all aspects of music.

The Frogman / Learsfool:

Why not submit a list, for us aficionados, of GREAT Jazz players, who were great, BECAUSE, they went to Juilliard.

Cheers

Rok, c'mon. We don't have a habit of misquoting you nor of shooting down anything. The truth is that when discussing these topics you are not a particularly good communicator via what you write. Example:

****Nuts and Bolts is a term I use to reflect an attitude. And that is, that playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that along, can make a player great.****

Huh! If you mean this then it would go counter to everything that you have said previously about the subject.

First of all, "nuts and bolts" is not an attitude. From the first time that I used that term I have been very clear about its intended meaning: study of the rudiments of musicianship and being an instrumentalist or vocalist; music theory, rhythm, the mechanics of playing an instrument (including one's voice) etc. ALL players, regardless of genre, have to do that in order to achieve greatness. So, for the sake of clarity and for a discussion to not to turn into an incoherent mess, we should stick to that meaning of the term.

****I cannot imagine any musician, other than so-called Rock musicians, being anything other than nice human beings.****

Don't you understand how ridiculous that comment is? Have you any idea how many great musicians there are in the jazz and the classical world who are assholes? And why are you denigrating all Rock musicians?

As I wrote that comment it became clear to me what the problem is in these discussions. We all have a right to our opinions; but, we don't have a right to present them as fact without being able to back them up. I have said this before, I admire your passion and your inquisitiveness (as of late); but, with due respect, when it comes to some of these topics, you don't know what you are talking about. If you did, you wouldn't have to ask some of the questions that you do.

BTW, what happened with that on-line music course you were considering? You should do it.

Cheers.

****Why not submit a list, for us aficionados, of GREAT Jazz players, who were great, BECAUSE, they went to Juilliard.****

I am almost speechless. I have no idea how or why you arrived at the conclusion that anyone has ever suggested this. All I can think of in response is the scene in Shawshank Redemption where Andy goes to speak to the warden after having been given proof that he can use to show that he is innocent of the crime; after several attempts at trying to get the warden to consider what he is saying he says "How can you be so obtuse?"
:-)

Now, PLEASE try to explain to me WITH EXAMPLES/QUOTES what has been said so far to suggest that a jazz player can be great BECAUSE he attended Juilliard. You, on the other hand, started this whole Juilliard mess by very clearly suggesting that you "something was wrong" with Miles because he did attend Juilliard; and absurd comment; perhaps you were joking. Please clarify.

***you are not a particularly good communicator via what you write. Example:****

Wrong answer! I am an excellent communicator. The problem is, you have this habit of reading what you wish I had said, rather than what I actually said.

****Nuts and Bolts is a term I use to reflect an attitude. And that is, that playing music in accordance with some musical theory, and that along, can make a player great.****

***Huh! If you mean this then it would go counter to everything that you have said previously about the subject.***

Allow me to say Huh!!! I am telling you that when I use the term N&B, I am referring to an attitude YOU have. YOU, not me. So how does the statement run counter to anything I have said? After all, it's you that champions all these school trained noise makers, not me.