Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear @noble100  : The corrupted AHEE where like it or not all audiophiles are inside teached us stay away of subwoofers in a home stereo audio system.

The audiophiles were educated in that way and even today several of them are sticky to that information.

Not only that but the name JBL was a forbidden one by that same corrupted AHEE.

Well several years ago was precisely at JBL where took one of those scientific studies on the precise convenience to install multiple subwoofers in " domestic " enviroments and its full non-refutable advantages.
These people not only make the mathematics modeling of that subs subject but they tested LIVE at its unique audio research installations/facilities.

As a part of that AHEE I never thougth or passed for my mind to install subwoofers in my home system, so I just let it gone till my " curiosity " ( many years ago too. ) to think and test " out of the box " made it that I bougth two Sweden active Audio Pro 10" subwoofers that because my very high ignorance level on the subs subject did not worked in the rigth way.

Anyway, latter on I insisted on the subject and installed my today active subwoofers that I took around one year for been totally room/system integrated with out room treatment or equalization of any kind.
In the mean time and before I sold those two Audio Pro I connected it along the Velodynes and again because my high ignorance levels the Audio Pro gone but I remember that in one of my several tests I put the Audio Pro at both sides of my seat position ( very near. ) and I could not detected its reproduction sound but was functioning onn.

Time latter and through my Velodyne's adventure I learned that the myth that over 30-40hz the bass has directionality comes down totally falls that myth because even  at 80-90 hz you can't detect it if exist good system integration.

For years in this and other threads, even in my latest posts here, I touted that the more critical an important home system frequency range is the bass one that with out a true high quality performance in that range what we are hearing is the system room with a really " poor " quality level performance even on system in the 300K prices.

I just can remember an Agoner that a few weeks ago I send him an email trying to help in some ways for his system truly shines: he owns  a very high price beautiful system with Magico speakers I think the 3 or 5 model and what I email to him was the integration of two subwoofers in his system.
I think that because that very high price on his system and because the ignorance level we all have because that corrupted AHEE he never gave me any single answer not even: thank's but NO.

That's why we audiophiles just do not grow up even that we think we are growing up ! ! !


I notice in the past your today subs kind of set up and yes I know exactly what yoi mean and enjoy and what those gentlemans really know on the overall subject. Thank's to share with all of us here.

If you note no one else but @stringreen  and you posted and I wondering if each one of aall those Agoner's ignorance levels on the bass management subject is so high that has nothing to share, comment or ask ! ! !
Always posted and post here that every single day is a learning one for me that always am open to all audio experiences from other gentlemans.

Now and ccoming back with that " thunderous " kind of sound in home audio systems:

I already said thet all comes from very high distortions that only happens in home audio systems. Let me explain my take here:

maybe some peole other than me already experienced the " fall " of a live thunder at near field from us. What can we remember about other that the very high SPL of the sound ( " fundamental " notes " ) ?: NO SINGLE VIBRATION/DISTORTIONS.

What if in the same example/experience we are at 200 m.?:

thatwe feel those vibrations/distortions/resonances all over our body. From where are coming in this example?:

it came from the enviroment that's " exited " by those fundamental/harmonic notes and that were " builded " through the " distance ".

Here the " distance " is our each one ROOM and it does not matters how we make the room treatment or equalization never really disappears and can't disappears because the bass range system ( not room. ) reproduction has " poor " quality levels.
This " poor " quality levels comes from each and all single link in the system chain. 

 Obviously than in the analog alternative is way " poor " than in the digital one and it does not matters what you think in this digital subject.

All analog lovers ( like me ) always try to have the best front end with distortions at minimum, our main concern belongs " there " and we don't take with the same " passion " the other links and especially electronics ones.

Why I mentioned electronics? because all the information is " processed " down there and we need at least that those electronics ( Phono line preamp, phono stage, line preamp or amps. ) where designed to performs from 1 hz to over 200 khz and with almost negible distortion/noise levels and that that frequency range be really flat. This must be not only our targets but the target of electronics manufacturers. Yes, additional must be a very good design and with high quality design excecution.

We can think that any kind of electronics can do it but not really. Of course thatalmost any item can have those characteristics with huge deviations on the freqency range.

Which are the precise and rigth electronic alternative we all have on " hand " to use it any time we want it?:

ONLY ONE alternative: SOLID SATE DESIGNS.

For the bass range be reproduced in precise way we need SS electronics, tube alternative is for anything you want but to handle the bass range that is where is the home system foundation.
No, hybrid designs does not meet the targets because it can't do it, is a limitation of the tube technology.

We have to remember here that what we want is not to hear/listen/enjoy the ROOM but the recording.
@lewm , you can't do nothing about and don't be angry with me again for that tube subject.

I can prove to any one what I posted here even to electronics tube designers that I respect for they shared their knowledge level on their designs. Please don't forgeret that I used for many years tube electronics and I'm not against tubes but in favor of MUSIC and what's in the recording.

There is a MoFi old recording name it: The Power and Majesty that it's in my personal evaluation tests/tracks process and is really a bass management and its meaning on almost all I posted here and this recording can tell you if our system is performing with high or poor quality level: if you know what to looking for.

Same with the several CDs tracks I use in my evaluation home  systems process: to know what to look for. 


Btw, already arrived my two 2.8 kwatts regulators. I'm with some " doubts " if it will works because my amps are fully regulated. I will connect it in my system after take a look inside the units and if I can make some tweaks down there.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, I agree.  For clean low bass, SS is best.  Also, I like and respect Duke Lejeune very much, and I applaud his success with AudioKinesis.  My problem when it comes to placing four subwoofers in my living room is where to place them.

But in my Beveridge system, I use a Threshold amplifier to drive my home-made transmission line woofers for all frequencies below about 100Hz, and the results are excellent. Dahlquist crossover receives the output from the preamplifier and provides the signal to the Threshold.  All solid state.

     For anyone seriously considering deploying a distributed bass array system in their system and room, I believe the thought of where to locate 4 subs is a common concern.

      It was definitely a concern of mine until I went through the rather extensive setup procedure that determines the ideal spot for each sub.  I'll describe my experience so that readers can better understand the process and how these concerns were remedied in my installation:

    My living room serves as the home for my combination  music listening and 5.1 HT system.
     It is 23 ft long and 16ft wide.  My 65" hdtv is wall mounted roughly in the center of the front 16 ft wall.  There is a Magnepan 2.7qr panel (each 6 ft tall and 2 ft wide) on each side of the tv that are both about 4 ft out from the front 16 ft wall and 1 ft in from each 23 ft side wall. There is a Magnepan CC3 center ch speaker centered above the tv that is wall mounted.    All components reside on or in a 5 ft wide by 1.5 ft tall audio cabinet located below the tv and against the 16 ft front wall.  
     The primary listening seat is centered on the rear 16 ft wall with a 7 ft sofa along the right 23 ft wall and 2 chairs along the opposite 23 ft wall.  There was not a lot of open space in this room when I began the setup procedure.
     

The setup procedure is:

Sub#1 is hooked up and placed on its back  (driver facing the ceiling) at the normal listening position. Music is played that has good and repetitive bass.

Walk around the edges of the room and determine exactly where the bass sounds best to you.

Attach the 3 spiked footers to Sub#1 and position it upright facing the nearest wall to the spot you determined the bass sounded best.

Sub#2 is hooked up and placed on its back at the primary listening position. With sub 1 & 2 playing, continue walking around the edges of your room and determine again where the bass sounds best to you.

Attach the 3 spiked footers to Sub#2 and position it upright facing the nearest wall to the spot you determined the bass sounded best.

Repeat this procedure for sub 3 & 4.

Small positioning adjustments may need to be made for each sub due to avoiding furniture and the WAF.

Once completed, final sub hook up is done in parallel:

Attach a single wire from the amp's speaker A's pos. output terminal and to Sub#1's pos. input terminal.

Attach a single wire from the amp's speaker A's neg. output terminal and to Sub#2's neg. input terminal.

Attach a single wire from Sub#1's neg. input terminal to Sub#2's pos. input terminal.

Attach Sub 3 & 4 using this parallel method on the amp's speaker B's output terminals.

I ordered single, high quality and low gauge speaker wire along with the sub system for a very reasonable price. Once the ideal locations for the subs was determined, I drilled holes in my room's floor to the crawl space below, and was able to hide the connecting wires.

     The final positioning turned out not to be an issue, with the best sounding positions actually being discreet and unobtrusive.  The 2 front subs are each located directly behind my main panel speakers and are not even visible from my primary listening position.

     The 2 rear subs are each located along each 23 ft side wall about a foot in from the rear wall.  The left wall sub is concealed from view by a leather recliner and the right wall sub is concealed behind a large end table.  My primary listening seat is between these 2 rear subs.

      I should mention I've never had my system/room analyzed using a mike and software.  From my purely subjective perspective, however, I'm confident the results would be good since I spent hours on the setup and critical listening from all six listening positions in my room. I would suggest this type of sub system as a viable alternative for anyone considering investing in one or more quality subs. The system is rated clean at 113 decibels at 20 hz. I've often heard and felt it go this deep. It feels and sounds clean and right but I can't verify the frequency, decibels or lack of distortion.

Sorry this turned out so long and windy,

  Tim     

Tim, Was this last post intended to make the rest of us feel good about the prospects of installing and positioning four subs in a listening room?  If so, it didn't work.  In my case, the listening room is our living room.  There is no video in the room at all. Apart from the physically huge audio system (Sound Lab 845PXs on the front wall and three turntables on the back wall, for example), the decor is art deco with a lot of antiques and original art works.  It's a pleasant place to be away from video, a bit smaller than your room but similar in proportions.  I would hate to have to watch out for tripping over subwoofers whilst walking around the room to change records, or when we are entertaining guests at parties.  I'll talk to Duke.

lewm:

" Tim, Was this last post intended to make the rest of us feel good about the prospects of installing and positioning four subs in a listening room?  If so, it didn't work."

Hi lewm,

     Yes,I was trying to mitigate the angst many likely experience at the thought of positioning 4 subs in their listening rooms.  My post was meant to convey that I was concerned about this, too, but that it was easier to incorporate 4 subs into my room than I initially thought.  In your case, unfortunately, you're not buying what I'm selling.

     I understand this solution may not work for everyone.  My only motivation for posting at all was to share what I know is a very effective method of attaining excellent bass response in any room that works well for both high quality 2-ch music and HT.  It is the only method I'm aware of that has this capability along with eliminating the vast majority of bass standing waves in any room which results in consistently accurate and tuneful bass throughout the entire room no matter where you are standing or sitting.

" I would hate to have to watch out for tripping over subwoofers whilst walking around the room to change records, or when we are entertaining guests at parties.  I'll talk to Duke."

     I think you would be well served by talking to Duke LeJeune at AudioKinesis.  In your case, I would suspect that you'd likely find the subs would sound best in the following positions:

The front 2 subs along the front wall behind, and discreetly hidden by,  your large Sound Labs.
One each of the back 2 subs opposite each other at some points along your side walls.

     This is only an educated guess and, of course, only you could determine if these positions would work for you.  I actually think the Debra or Swarm 4 sub system, with 4 dispersed 10" woofers, could be an ideal match for integrating well with high quality, fast electrostatic panels like sound Labs.  
     My only concern would be the possibility of the 2 side wall subs transmitting vibrations to your turntables along your rear wall.  
     I have no dog in this fight, but I really believe you would be pleasantly surprised how well a distributed bass array system could work in your room.

Please discuss with Duke.

Thanks,
  Tim