Choosing Sub-woofers. Please advise ASAP.

dlcockrum,

   You were right, that thread did keep me busy for a while.

    Unfortunately, I still feel the spirit and will likely continue to be a DBA (Distributed Bass Array) system disciple and spread the 'good word' about how well they perform compared to the use of 3 or less conventional subs no matter their quality or cost.

    I may be on a mission from the audio gods.

Thank you for being my enabler,

           Tim

Tim, that may sound best for you and that's awesome. We all have our passions in audio, but to make some of the statements you make are not correct.  There is not scientific measurement to say any speaker or sub is the best way to do it.  There are many ways to do things and listening is subjective as we are all built differently. That can't be refuted.  

There are plenty of products in audio that test great, but sound like crap.  Some do sound good to many folks and measure adequately.  I rarely see products liked that measure poorly.  From the looks of it, you can mention ten different high end subs and they all go about things differently.  You like an array of subs, some else likes fewer or another design or Vandersteen's taking the signal off the main amp (my favorite).  Size certainly does matter if you want to move air (that part is physics and isn't subjective).  

Lot's goes into it and no matter how much data you may present and how passionate you are, it doesn't make you more correct than the folks who espouse REL or JL or Vandersteen or any of the numerous other subs.  The irony is that you are pushing your subs, but you have turned off more than a couple of folks and I'm sure that's not your intent.  Just invite folks to audition and make up their own minds.  

ctsooner,

  I agree with much of what you posted: listening is subjective, audition and make up your own mind and some other statements.

  However, I think you have a misunderstanding of the main points I'm trying to convey. I'll attempt to clarify.

      The main thing I'm espousing is the concept of the Distributed Bass Array System  (DBAS as an acronym).  Specifically, the use of a minimum of 4 subs that are precisely positioned within a room in a progressive locating procedure in order to significantly reduce the bass standing waves throughout the room.  The result being excellent bass response, with no bass peaks (bass overemphasis), bass nulls (bass under-emphasis) or bass cancellations (bass absence), throughout the entire room and not just a single 'sweet spot'.

     What I am definitely not espousing is a certain brand or model of sub.  I know there are many very good subs because I've heard many of them.  Rel, JL and Vandersteen come immediately to mind when I think of some of the best I've heard but there are other very good subs as well.

     An important aspect of deploying a DBAS is that it can be done with virtually any make and model of sub preferred; the only restrictions being that 4 are required and they need to be precisely positioned within the room.  Good DBA systems are truly sub agnostic.

    The concept of the DBAS is typically credited to two acoustical experts, Dr. Geddes and Dr. O'Toole, who have written white papers and conducted empirical experiments on the subject.  I can provide links to their work if you'd like.
     The gist of their findings is that bass peaks, nulls and cancellations continue to be reduced within a given room as more bass sources (subs) are added.  
     They realized there is an obvious practical limit to the acceptable number of subs in a commercial or home environment. Critically, they discovered that the use of 4 subs strategically positioned eliminated the vast majority of bass standing waves within a given room, with additional subs being only marginally effective.  This is the reason most DBA systems utilize 4 subs.

     You're correct, my intent is not to offend anyone or denigrate their preferred sub.  My intent is only to bring awareness to how well the DBA concept works and the fact that absolutely no microphones, room analysis/room correction software or room treatments are required.

     I hope I've clarified my position,
          Tim   

Tim, I agree with you on using multiple subs.  The problem becomes that in order to do it, you MUST place them in exactly the correct positions. If you don't, you lose everything you are trying to accomplish. It also is very costly when you start using top quality subs. You can't get better sound using multiple subs if the subs you are using aren't the same quality as two great subs.  Can't fix what's wrong by just adding more of the same (not talking about anyone's subs specifically).  

In discussing this with a designer, you need a dedicated room typically to make this realistic.  There is no affordable way to do multiple subs when you are talking about high end systems.  You also need to keep in mind what main speakers you are augmenting when using subs.  So many folks don't realize this.  I think that's why I posted what I did. Again, i'm sure your subs are outstanding, but 95% of us can't put 4 or more subs in our rooms, especially where they must be placed.  I've heard arrayed subs in show rooms in the past and loved what I heard. I specifically remember hearing them about 10 years ago in NYC at a high end store, but I hated the mains they ran them with, but it cleaned up the bass a great deal.  

Yes, I like how Vandersteen runs his subs by taking the signal from the mains the way he does and crossing over where he does do the sound of the bass is consistent with the sound of the main speakers. I also like the idea of having a semi active speaker like the Quatro on up.  If done properly, it also will relieve the main amp from having to run anything from 100 or so down and that helps the amps sound better as they aren't having to deal with the bass load which is very difficult for any amp.  Lot's more dynamics current available for the mids which folks don't realize is where a ton is needed on transients.

ctsooner,

     
     As you heard at that high end store in NYC, distributed bass array systems work incredibly well.  They provide excellent bass response that is capable of being taut, textured, detailed and nuanced while also capable of going deep and powerful when the content calls for it.  Because of this, how they integrate so well with any quality or type of main speakers and work in any room no matter the size or shape, I consider them an extremely good bass reproduction system.  

       However, DBAs are not perfect.  A minimum of 4 subs are required to achieve this great bass response throughout the entire room.  Individuals must also make a few decisions before deciding to deploy a DBA in their room:

1.  Do they want great bass response throughout the entire room or just at one optimized listening position?

    The use of 1 or 2 good quality subs can be utilized, if positioned properly, to achieve very good bass response at a single listening position in a room typically called a 'sweet spot'.  The compromise of this approach is that bass response will not be good at numerous other locations in their room due to bass standing waves at those locations. The bass will sound exaggerated, under-emphasized or even nonexistent at these locations.
      The use of 4 or more subs in a DBA is the only currently known method that has been empirically proven to achieve very good bass response throughout an entire room.  
     The choice and ramifications are clear, either you find a way to accommodate the extra subs or you settle for very good bass response at a single sweet spot.

2.  Do they want a very good complete DBA system (like the $3K Swarm or Debra) or do they want to create their own custom DBA  (using 4 even higher quality subs of their own choosing that will be considerably more expensive)?

     I know of only one person, another Audiogon member enginedr1960, who created his own DBA using 4 Rel q201e subs.  He says it's working very well but I haven't heard it and he has never heard the Swarm or Debra DBA.

     I'm completely satisfied with my Debra DBA for both 2-ch music and HT.  However, I would think substituting other high quality subs in a custom DBA would likely sound as good or even possibly better.  Verrsatility is just another of the many benefits of the DBA approach.

     Yes, I am biased but only because I know it works so well.

     Tim