Insane ground loop; anybody wanna try?


I have a ground loop that's been killing me for weeks. I've tried several things to limited or no success. I've written to Mike Sanders at Quicksilver, but I'm a little chagrined to keep asking him questions that aren't really the fault of his gear.

Anybody want to have a go at solving this puzzle? It's driving me nuts, and I'd be grateful for any help.

Relevant equipment:
Rowland Capri preamp
Quicksilver Silver 60 mono amps (EL34)
Sunfire True Sub

Amps, preamp, and sub are all plugged into a Monster 2000, so everything shares a common wall outlet.
Plugging the amps into separate wall outlets has little effect either way.
Amps are damn near dead-quiet with no input, so it's shouldn't be the transformers or the tubes.

Amps plugged in to the preamp (shielded DH Labs RCA cables) hum, and the sub does too. Swapping cables has no effect.
Unplugging and reconnecting sources (a turntable and a Mac Mini via a Schiit DAC) has no effect.
Unplugging the sub has little effect (except it eliminates the hum in the sub, haha).

Lifting the ground on the amps reduces the hum — by about half, but definitely not completely.
A Hum-X has no (or very little) effect, whether placed on the preamp, an amp, or the sub.

For obvious reasons I don't want to lift the ground on the amps permanently.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm a logical guy.

Ideas? I'm open to any with two requests: First, if you don't know something for sure, please say so. I don't want to play in electron traffic because somebody just guessed at a solution. And second, if you disagree with somebody, don't call him names, okay? There's more than enough gratuitous meanness in the world right now without insulting people over stereo equipment. Thanks.
pbraverman
Edwyun 2-22-2017
There can be a combination or cumulative effect of issues.
+1. Specifically, it’s possible that there is nothing "wrong" with the AC wiring to the listening room, but it may have different characteristics than the more recent wiring to location 1, which in turn are bringing out an inherent susceptibility of the power amp/preamp combo to ground loop issues.

More specifically, see pages 31 to 35 of this paper, written by a renowned expert on such matters, in which he describes "what drives 99% of all ground loops." As you’ll see, Romex (which perhaps was used in the relatively recent wiring of location 1) is much less likely to bring out the susceptibility to ground loop issues that is inherent in some designs than wires randomly positioned in conduit (which perhaps was used in the older wiring to the listening room).

If that is what is occurring, and it seems like a reasonable bet at this point, a solution may be to have an electrician install new wiring to the listening room, using Romex. Alternatively, inserting a suitably chosen Jensen transformer between the preamp and each of the amps would probably resolve the problem, while also perhaps reducing other forms of noise, at a cost of around $300 plus some additional cabling.

Reports that have been provided here regarding the transparency of Jensen transformers have generally been very positive, although I can recall a couple of people who have provided comments that are a little bit mixed.

A suitable Jensen model would be the PI-RR, which would accept an RCA cable at its input and provide an RCA output, or the PI-XR, which would accept an XLR cable at its input and provide an RCA output. You would need two of them, one connected via a short RCA cable to the input of each amp. The cable from the preamp to the Jensen transformer could be whatever length is necessary. Here is a good supplier, although they can also be ordered directly from Jensen.

Also, although it is apparently unrelated to the problem I would still strongly advise that at some point soon you eliminate the XLR-to-RCA adapters, that are shorting the signal on pin 3 of the preamp’s XLR outputs to ground. If the sub does not provide XLR inputs you could either special order adapters from Cardas which leave pin 3 open, or have a cable supplier custom make an XLR to RCA cable which leaves pin 3 open, or purchase a Jensen PI2-XR transformer which would provide two channels of balanced to unbalanced conversion. Or you could use the preamp’s XLR outputs for the main signal path, connecting them to the amps via the Jensen PI-XR transformers, and connect RCA cables from the preamp to the sub.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al


@pbraverman
Yes that is what I was trying to say. The Voltage between neutral and ground means there is resistance in the wiring. But at less than 1V is not bad.
Thanks to all of you, especially @toddverrone, @almarg, and @xti16, I think I have it figured out.

The original circuit feeds the two outlets at the system end of the room. I don’t think that was installed in 1936, but it’s in metal conduit, so it definitely isn’t too recent. Not surprisingly, one outlet box connects to the other, so any shortcomings in the circuit are shared.

Mais voilà. There is a four-gang outlet at the opposite end of the room that we added upon buying the house in 1998. (The room doubles as my office.) It’s Romex-fed, and I think it even has its own circuit. There’s some other stuff on it (most unfortunately a laser printer), but when I run a long extension cord from the system to the 1998 outlets, the hum is almost totally gone. At any rate, it’s acceptable.

From there isn’t not too hard for me to run some Romex about 20 feet and install a new outlet at the other end. Some day somebody is going to ask what the hell went on, but for now it should solve the mystery.

If anybody thinks I’m wrong, please let me know. Otherwise, for now, I think it will work.

Thanks again for all the time and advice. I’m truly grateful.