Great information and thank you very much. I always liked Mills MRA and just assumed the Duelund would be better. Great info.
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
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- 3012 posts total
Great parts Volleyguy1. You should be thrilled with the results. I am confident of that. @salectric I ended up using a mix of Duelund and Mills resistors. I finished the highs/mids board in my Crescendo speakers and have about 150 hours on them. The improvement is just wonderful. It was very, very hard fitting all the parts on a board that would fit in the speaker. The 12uf Jupiter cap is 6 inches long with a circumference of 8 inches! It replaced a 1.5 inch metalized film cap as just one example. My wife did not want any other electronics boxes in the room so outboard crossovers were not an option😢 The improvement is dramatic. Here are pics of the board. The bass board is my next project. http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/slideshow/ |
Grannyring I think you will be correct. :) I must admit though after getting back the 3rd Fisher from repair shop (today) I hooked it up and it took out an output transformer. It gets tiring. It is now back in shop, might be coincidence. These old amps are from 51-60 years old. (I did stock extra output transformers) For me these vintage amps are a love/hate relationship. Years ago one caught fire! (Melted an output transformer) (amp I am still listening too) Plus I was/am not a vintage guy look wise. These things were bought solely on sound as I was stunned when I first heard them. (Weaknesses but tone I had never heard in my life) Keeping up 3 antiques amps to have 2 systems going. Then on Saturday I went with my daughter and to a high end stereo store in Toronto. I try and get out and hear as many systems as I can. Her first comment (was a puzzled look) these sound like toys?... Things quickly come back to why I put up with antiques. Just waiting on some vintage connectors and the Duelund tinned copper wire goes in second system and new tweeter RS caps. I just can can not get over the tone Jack White gets out of his guitar... I would know what I want in speakers. Duelund internal wiring. Duelund RS (or CAST) AlNiCo drivers. Duelund or wax paper inductors. NO Electrolytics. Amp either a mix of VCap cuft, Jupiter Copper and Duelund RS and CAST or all Duelund. Output transformers paper bobbin. I have one of my burned out output transformers. All paper. It is hard for me to imagine this is not a big deal better than plastic. My vintage wax paper inductor in the speaker was quieter than the Duelund VSF inductor! How can a paper output tranny not be quieter? Anyone know where to buy this kind of stuff new save Audio Note? |
Duelund resistors are "weird." They claim to have a high thermal coefficient (resistor value change rapidly with heat) that somehow magically makes them change value correctly to compensate for drivers warming up. Problem is there are lots of places to use resistors in a circuit, and the importance of any given resistor to the overal filter impedance varies tremendously, so who knows which way this will affect the speaker sound as it warms up. Having resistors change value with heat is the LAST thing on earth I want, unless I have exactly matched the crossover behavior to the drivers themselves. Unlike Duelund, Mills 5 and 12W wire wound resistors have EXCELLENT thermal stability. Warm them up within their heat / power tolerances and they maintain their values precisely. I think Jensen is making a line of affordable (relatively) foil in wax / paper coils. E |
- 3012 posts total