Choosing Sub-woofers. Please advise ASAP.

Hi ctsooner,

You stated: 
" I think it's awesome that you love your sub set up.  I haven't hear the subs, but if you are getting 4 sub 1000 subs for 3k, I have to wonder if they will sound better than a pair of 1500 ea subs that are better quality (not all 1500 subs will be better quality, just making a blanket statement).  My other point is that most folks I know well could never have 4 or more subs regardless of size (and size does matter big time) in their rooms.  Life factors intervene as I posted above. Not debating the quality, just the cost, difficulty to set up perfectly and the ability to fit that many in their listening area (logistics).  That's all.  Not debating at all. "

     It is true that the Swarm and Debra DBA systems are reasonably priced at $3,000.  You get four small (1ft x 2ft x 2ft) but substantial (67 lb)  bass reflex  4 ohm subs with spiked footers and 10" drivers along with a 1,000 watt class A/B sub amp.  I consider these systems bargains given their price and performance.

     In my experience and room, the Debra system clearly provided better bass than my former 2 good quality older Kinergistics 12" subs were capable of.  My opinion is that either the Swarm or Debra four sub systems are likely to provide better bass in most rooms than the use  of  just a pair of subs no matter the price or quality.  I have not actually compared my Debra system to a pair of very high quality subs but would seriously doubt a pair would sound as good unless they were positioned to optimize bass at just a single sweet spot.

     Would the Swarm and Debra's bass performance  be improved upon through the use of 4 even higher quality subs  in the $1,500 plus price range?  Yes, I think this would further improve the bass performance of a DBA commensurate with the performance level increase of the substituted subs.

     I'm very curious how using 4 very high quality subs would sound in my room but I'm in no hurry to spend the thousands of dollars necessary to find out.  I'm currently very satisfied with the Debra's bass performance in my system with the supplied subs.  My concern with spending more in an effort for further improvement is the always present 'law of diminishing returns' in this hobby.  My opinion is that improvements would not be dramatic but marginal in nature and likely be hard to justify given the large expense.

     As to the point about most people not being able to have, or be allowed to have, 4 subs in their room, I consider this the most likely reason for the reluctance of many people to even try a DBA.

      I understand this concern all too well.  My wife thought I was nuts and we both thought we'd have to rearrange our living room to accommodate these 4 subs even though they're relatively small.  But I'm somewhat devoted to the performance of my combination music and audio/video system so I was persistent and managed to convince her to let me give it a try.
     Fortunately, I was able to position each sub where it sounded best while keeping their physical presence disguised (the front 2 hidden behind each of my 6' x 2' panel main speakers and the rear 2 partially hidden, 1 behind a leather chair and the other behind a large end table).

     Of course, not everyone will be able to locate 4 subs in their room as discreetly.  If this is the case,  each individual must determine how important very good bass response throughout their entire room is to them.  Those who think it's important will find a way to accommodate 4 subs.  Those who don't will need to use 2 or less good subs and settle for good bass at only a chosen single sweet spot.

Tim

Sounds like a plan Tim.  As for using subs with the Quatros, there is no reason to do so.  That's the whole idea of his 11 band EQ built into them.  It's the same thing with his 7's.  He had just come out with subs for folks who have to have more bass with the 7's.  In order to get even more bass into the 7's cabinet you need to go external.  Physics says in order to move more air, you need larger cones or even more drivers.  I haven't hear the 7's with subs, but I will eventually.  Just waiting on a dealer to get them.  

Hi ctsooner,

     I understand that each Quatro speaker has a built in 11 band EQ for their built in self-powered sub.
     I assume you position each of your Quatros so that you achieve the best mid-range and treble response, along with the best sound stage illusion, at your listening position. I don't believe you're also positioning each Quatro for best bass response or even if it's possible to optimize bass, mid-range, treble and sound stage at one listening position even with the 11 band equalizers.  

     Because the built-in subs are located at the bottom of each Quatro just below the attached mid-range and treble drivers and it's known that bass sound waves interact within a room very differently than mid-range and treble sound waves interact within a room, I'm not understanding how it's possible to achieve optimal full frequency response at your designated listening position.  Can you explain how you do this in your room  without the ability to locate the bass drivers independently from the mid-range and treble drivers?

     I think you're only option is to position your Quatros for optimum mid-range, treble and sound stage performance at your listening position and hope the bass is also good with the subs in the Quatros at the same positions.  
     Do you just adjust the bass through adjustments on both subs' 11 band EQs and use trial and error? The supplied amp with the Debra DBA has an equalizer, too, but I have never felt there was a need for any EQ in my room so I just leave all bands set at 'flat'.

     If the EQs are your only bass adjustment method, I think your system is likely to really benefit from the addition of a couple Vandersteen QW subs(or their newer subs coming out).  Positioning these extra 2 subs might be a bit tricky since the existing 2 subs in your Quatros can't really be re-positioned.  
     However, I am not ruling out how effective 2 additional subs could be in your room even with the position of the first 2 subs' positions being set at their current position.  I think If the positions of sub#3 and #4 are positioned according to the standard progressive setup procedure used for the Swarm and Debra bass systems, you're likely to notice a substantial increase in bass performance at least at your listening position and possibly throughout your entire room.

    You seem very pleased with the bass and overall performance of your high quality Quatros.  But I hope you'll arrange a demo of this custom DBA at least give it a try in your room with your dealer. I'd be very interested on your thoughts on the results.


Good luck,
  Tim        

av123 mfw-15 hits frequencies that shake my entire house. I had no idea this sub would produce what it does.

Tim, I won't be bringing in any subs once I get the Quatro's in the house and set up.  What you also should keep in mind is that any of the powered Vandersteen's are set up for the best upper bass to treble response and soundstage.  Yes, that's right on their site I believe.  That said, dialing in the built in bass units using the EQ on each will give you probably 99% (always subjective) of what you would get by adding two more 2W subs and dialing them all in.  The dealer is doing the set up for me as most do.  They will use their lasers and tape measures, but they also have a special Vandertones disk they use to set them up for the bass.  It's really easy to dial in your bass this way.  All speakers are designed with omissions and have to be due to limitations set at price ranges or just due to materials available.  That said, I've never heard of a current or former Vandersteen owner from Quatro up complain about the bass.  I have a lot of friend who have standing wave problems, etc... get them in their room and be very very satisfied.  

Again, would adding two more be better?  Only if they match the speaker and are of the same design as the ones already in the room (in Vandersteen's case, using their 2W or better yet, his newest sub).