Jazz for aficionados

****Rok, let me tell you a tru story about slaves here and their drums. At first the boss man didn't mind, and the drums had catchy rhythms, but when somebody told him, "Hey boss man, did you know they could talk with them drums"? That changed things; from that time on, the drum was outlawed. The very next night, "I thought I told yall to stop beatn them damn drums"! How can you have African music without a drum?****

O-10, I am sure that you have heard the term Santeria.  Santeria is the religion that African slaves in Caribbean countries "synthesized" by giving their African gods Roman Catholic names in order to bypass the outlawing of their religion by their masters.  "How can you have African music without a drum"......How can you have your religion without your Gods?

While it would be ideal to understand the African influence on jazz from the standpoint of musical analysis (which makes it clear and obvious)
looking at this parallel might make it easier to understand the answer to your question; "the math". In answer to your specific question "How can you have African music without a drum"?  Easily,  the drum is the vehicle, the means to an end; it plays rhythms......so does any other instrument including the human voice.  THAT is how the African influence on jazz can be heard: the "blue" notes found in their native music and most importantly the "swing" feeling, the swagger and looseness; these are such a big part of the feeling of jazz as opposed to the more rigid or "square" feeling which is typical of the music of the European tradition.  Combine that swagger, "blue" notes with European melody and harmony and you get........jazz.  This does not take anything away from the fact that jazz is a uniquely American art form; it IS America's most important art from.  However, just as we like to say that America is a "melting pot" of cultures, why should it be any different re it's music.  I think that the issue of musical INFLUENCE is something that deserves much more understanding, not just as concerns African music and Jazz, but as concerns jazz in general; and, would be extremely informative as we look at various individual jazz artists. It lets the entire lineage make more sense.

We recently revisited the subject of Coltrane (it never goes away; nor should it).  I can't think of a better example of "influence" than this.  Coltrane on alto saxophone sounding amazingly like Bird himself.  When one listens to late Coltrane the Bird influence is much much harder to discern; he had taken that influence, fused it with his own vision and had taken off.  However, it takes more than the ability to simply recognize an alto compared to a tenor in order to hear the Bird influence when listening to later Trane.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=MGnY-axUH0U

To say Ravel would be unknown save for "Bolero",disqualifies
whoever said it comments from ANY serious consideration whatsoever on the subject of classical music.

The Frogman:

Bolero:

Once again you miss the point. I thought it was composed as a Ballet? That being true, what's wrong with there being dancing? And if you didn't like the choreography, well, what can one say?

Ravel: Of course he wrote other pieces of music. They appear as FILLER, on every copy of BOLERO I own. And if you don't understand how ONE piece can make a career, well you have not been paying attention to the music business.

Don't put words in my posts. I did not say Tchaikovsky would be unknown without '1812'. I said he had a similar attitude towards 1812, as Ravel had towards Bolero. Even Wiki says Ravel 'resented' the success of Bolero.

It's a common theme in music. Artist writes what he considers junk or throwaway music. But saves his best efforts for his 'serious' works. The public loves the junk music. Makes the artist rich and famous. Public ignores all his 'serious' stuff. Artist becomes bitter. Happens quite often. The message: The masses can make or break.

Paris: I read that report in one of the British Magazines that did a spread on either Bolero or Ravel. I am almost sure of that. Can't remember which one. I have tooo many to try and find it. I stand by the qoute. I remember it well.

If it is not true, and wiki and a few more sites report similar accounts, then it proves what I said about believing everything you read from people who are supposed to know.

Cheers

****That comment could not be further from the truth. "Bolero", while popular is considered one of Ravel's least important works.*******

The masses beg to disagree. You use that word 'considered' a lot. Considered by whom? Why do their considerations trump the considerations of the public. Unless of course, Ravel wrote his music for the professors at music school.

***Are you familiar with his orchestration of "Pictures At An Exibition",****

Pictures!! One of my favorites. Orchestrating other folks compositions, is not the same as writing your own. I have made my point, so I will concede he did do other things. Like a lot of one hit wonders.

Cheers

My LAST word on Jazz and influences and Africa.

If we go to certain areas of this country which include, Eastern TN, Western NC, West VA, and Northern GA & AL, we will see and hear people playing their local music. You may ask, where did this music come from? I would answer by putting us all on a plane, and flying to Ireland and Scotland. There, we will see, and hear where it came from. Notes be damned. Nothing to figure out. Just look and listen.

Africa and Jazz: I want you to tell me, where would we fly to in Africa, to see and hear / see the orgins, linkage or seeds of Jazz.

Since notes are physics, no one music type or genre can 'claim' them. I want to go to Africa and hear Jelly Roll and Pops. Where do we go?

Some of you seem to think slaves came ovcer here on work visas. green cards. With carry-on baggage. To you I say, take a look at a diagram of a slave ship. The drum thing in the Us is all myth. It was used to 'explain' why Africans play drums and Blacks in the US don't. Answer, the drum is a poor man's instrument. We had access to trumpets and other western instruments.

In the Book, The Diary of Mary Chesnut, she recounts the scene the day they fired on Fort Sumter in Charleston, SC. She said slaves were running all over the place, with GUNS. Ready to fight them Yankees. If they were allowed guns, surely drums were not seen as a threat. Read the story of Nat Turner. He didn't need no stinking drums! :)

And, where did these drums come from? And what is the distance a drum can be heard? The whole things seems silly to me. Reading more US / World history and alot less music theory, will answer all questions.

Cheers