Jazz for aficionados

Hi guys - still lurking and glad to see that the conversations are generally more civil again. Ghosthouse, I want to respond to your yin-yang comparison of Frogman and Orpheus. I will state first that I also do not doubt that Orpheus accurately judged the audience reaction, etc., and I also want to say that I very much appreciate his stories - they are great contributions to this thread. This post is not about either of those things. 

I just want to say that they are not yin/yang, or two sides of the same coin. This would imply that they have the same knowledge/understanding, but different approaches/outlooks, if either is the right word. But this is simply not the case. Although they both unquestionably love music, one has studied it extensively all his life and has made it his profession (and very successfully so!), and writes about it very clearly. The other has openly expressed contempt for the very idea of studying music, and has no real understanding of how it works. However, he seems to think that the fact that he loves it so much gives him the same kind of authority in speaking about it. He has every right to think that, and write whatever he wants to here, and I have told him I am not going to argue with him anymore about the subject, or attempt to educate him anymore (though I do admire Frogman's efforts, and they are far more successful than mine were). This basic difference is the source of the unfortunate ill-humor you speak of, and why they cannot be considered yin and yang. It is a shame. But, despite some of the rancor expressed here from time to time, this is still the best long-running thread on this site. I have learned a great deal here, and I'm sure will continue to as long as it lasts, and I very much appreciate Orpheus as the originator of this thread. 

Learsfool, the title of this thread is jazz for aficionados, not music 101. I have suggested to you and Frogman many times, if you want to start a music class thread, you both have my blessings.

You and he both have taught some music on this thread; the problem arose when at the same time, you and he decided to teach me music, and I stated feel free to teach, and those who want to learn can do so, but if I want music lessons, I'll find a music school.

An "Aficionado" is a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or pastime; in this case, sharing the best jazz music available, whether it be on record, CD or live. Nowhere does that include learning music; however, I will appreciate any comments you have, that you feel are appropriate to sharing an appreciation of listening to music.

Someone mentioned a tribute to Mingus, before I got sidetracked, and the question was; did it capture the essence of Charles Mingus.

That was a huge task for sure; he would have to carefully divide the works of Mingus by category, and not by time. Some artists, Miles Davis in particular, changed in regard to time frame. Mingus chose various subjects that he painted on his musical canvas.

The "Sanctified Church" was a recurring them;


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvj1E7xyWsg


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1WQR8Ti1vk



"Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" was released on his album Mingus Ah Um. Mingus wrote it as an elegy for saxophonist Lester Young, who had died two months prior to the recording session, and was known to wear a broad-brimmed pork pie hat. It is one of Mingus's best-known compositions and has been recorded by many jazz and jazz fusion artists.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsNHDuwJrM



Enjoy the music.


           

I too had an issue (albeit minor) with the yin-yang characterization.  However, I did not make an issue of it in part because I think I know that what Ghosthouse means is the reliance primarily on a personal observational and emotional reaction to music or event when making commentary vs making commentary that is rooted in a generally accepted factual reality: subjective/objective...yin/yang.  Please correct me if I am misconstruing.

I have no interest in claiming any superiority or authority when participating here.  I participate and make comments, agree or disagree, based on what I believe (or know) to be factual and anyone who cares can decide whether what I write has any merit or not.  However, this does not mean that I will be yielding to what I believe is incorrect or incomplete information.  As always, I think the key is to do all this in a civil and respectful way regardless of which side one is coming from.  I also don't claim to never have failed in being civil, but I believe that anyone who cares to look at how the exchanges here transpire will find that things get derailed when the commentary from the yin side turns personal and often nasty when the yang disagrees and won't yield.  I believe the most recent exchange between yin and yang is a fine example of this.  

Now, the main reason I had an issue with the yin-yang characterization is what I think is the most important message in all of this for all of us.  The emotional and subjective aspect of the music listening experience cannot and should not be entirely separated from the factual reality; or vice versa.  The two can and should live side by side.  One of the reasons for "ill-humor" here has been the suggestion or insistence by some on the yin side that the simple fact that a listener acknowledges the factual (yang) means that that there is somehow less appreciation of or openness to the emotional (yin).  Nothing could be further from the truth.  In fact, and as I have suggested before, the understanding of the factual can enhance the emotional experience.  Whether this can work for any one individual is a personal matter however. ( Example, and speaking for myself:  I can acknowledge the craft and technical excellence of the music of Richard Wilson, but I still can't stand it.  Or, I can point to all the flaws in Elvis Costello's voice and still really like his singing).

The most recent ill-humor was luckily relatively minor and I would like to respectfully point out to O-10 that there was no attempt of any kind to "teach" anything; certainly not music.  Again, the problem stemmed from simple disagreement with a statement that he made about.....musicians.  That only musicians are capable of understanding late period Trane.  Frankly, it all seems a little ironic to me.

(Speaking of facts and relating to much of the above.  Glad to see attention paid to this sort of detail on the part of acman3 when he refers to the chord changes of "Impressions".  Perhaps the notes are incorrect but the changes of "Impressions" are the same as the tune "So What" not to "KOB".)

Nice Mingus clips, O-10.  One of the geniuses of the music.

That only musicians are capable of understanding late period Trane. Frankly, it all seems a little ironic to me.

That statement is slightly incorrect because you stated "Period "Trane", when I was referring to those 3 minutes when he lost McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones on that set that the professional drummer at the table explained.

Maybe this is the late period "Trane" you are referring to; this is "Trane's" last concert, which you can explain if you care to.


                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ7fC3vnPYI&t=1265s


Being a musician, you have the ability to explain this technically, and I'm looking forward to your explanation.