Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?


I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.

Here is how I found out.

After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.

It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.

I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904
Dynaquest4

I will not attempt to change your mind about, well, anything. But I will use one of your statements to make a theoretical case for several ways cabling interacts with your whole system, and how that can be more rewarding with more accurate or revealing gear.

"Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues. But, no...it seems otherwise. The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences. Interesting."

Assuming the quest of many audiophiles at one level is to come as close to faithful reproduction of the original recording as possible, then doing everything within budget and set up as possible would seem like an obvious goal. Cabling affects this pursuit in at least three ways.

1. Keep bad things away from the original signal. Bad "things" in the environment around your cables can come from several sources, devices in your home, building or neighborhood that emit electrical fields or interference, your systems own electronics, and its other cables that all come together behind your rack. Effectively keeping desired signals in their lane and interference out of their lane so the original signal arrives at its destination relatively unscathed is the goal here. This is one way good power cables can help, even though they are not purpose built to transmit any of your processed data. The better the original signal, the more rewarding the effective treatment of this problem.

2. Keep the cable itself from differentialy absorbing or only preserving some portion of the audible spectrum in your signal, or smearing the time signature of different elements in the audio signal. This is where the tone control idea comes in, and "better" cables keep this from happening to the greatest degree, I.E. they do not act as tone controls at all, allowing you for better or worse to hear what your electronics and speakers are trying to do. When you start hearing differences in room acoustics, production and the sound engineers choices, you are getting "the rest of the story".

3. Because different electronics and speakers have different output and input impedances, resistive loads, efficiencies, etc. not every cable will match well with every piece of gear, and so "bad" cable/gear match can reduce how effectively the above cable attributes are revealed in practice, so some thought and trial and error are in order to get the best results in cable choice.

OK, so why would expensive, well designed gear benefit at all from well designed cables? Well for starters, assume that better gear is generally producing more accurate signals out of the gate, and protecting these signals enhances the value, investment in, and enjoyment of better gear.

Also, your top end gear only reduces the need to address issues one and three above to the extent that each piece is not a significant source of electrical interference to the room or area where your cables are concentrated, or back into the power grid, and that your gear is not presenting odd loads or other electrical properties to the cabling, so protecting signals from intereference resulting from other sources in your listening room is still a valid goal, even if your gear is completely begnign in this regard (which it very likely is not).

And, regardless of how good the signal is when it leaves your gear, it has to get to the next piece of gear for processing intact. If the cabling absorbs any of the very expensive and accurate signal you are generating, I am going to go out on a limb and say that’s BAD.

So in summary, the better the gear, the better and more information rich the signal (analog or digital), and the better you should be able to notice when some of it is left behind of suffers some artifact in transit, or when such problem is corrected. To the extent that a user wants certain artifacts because they find that pleasing, then cables can be a part of "tuning" any system to the extent that they may be better at passing one or more signal elements relative some other cable.

I hear a difference as a result of all these processes operating in each of my systems. And my better gear sounds better to me with different and often but not always more expensive and sophisticated wires in between. But what is really remarkable is how good some very inexpensive gear can sound with better designed and implemented cables (not always... in some cases it just sounds... really inexpensive). While this does not pencil out for the average user, the results can be quit shocking, and can demonstrate just how universal the the properties above apply, and how well-designed some inexpensive equipment really is. Just my experience here, YMMV a lot.

kn


Yes the difference between the AQ Wild and WEL are the size of the teflon tubes and the absorption of electronic interference etc.... The lowered noise floor is so noticeable that I'm blown away.  I have NEVER been 'blown away' by any cable and I've had Odin's and the top Transparent in my system. For YEARS I owned what was the MIT top wire (the 350 interconnects and the 770 speaker cables) that they 'tuned' to my tube gear specifically.  

I'm used to using very good cabling in my systems.  Since I switched to AQ a few years ago, I"ve noticed positive differences.  They weren't modest, but they weren't 'blow me away'.  I never felt I should ever have to tune a system using wire. To me, that says I don't like the sound of my gear. I always listen to gear with lower priced cabling and go from there.  

I'm all about the neutral and for me, it will be nearly impossible to go backwards in my cabling.  
kn: Thanks for the polite, well written explanation of how you view the efficacy of "expensive" audio cables.  I should have responded sooner but have been tied up with a whole list of distractions.

I think my overall point of view is that I've personally never noticed ANY significant difference in cables (once basic length/impedance is met). Yes, I currently use some Kimber/Wireworld products that did nothing that I could detect.  You'd have to agree that any "difference" cabling can make (good or bad) is going to be very subtle.  I don't know anybody who would agree that something "jaw-dropping" (a favorite here) is a subtle effect.

I also have trouble with this: The ONLY people who recommend/praise the positive effect of exotic (high priced) cables are those that manufacture, distribute, retail, install, review for compensation or, lastly, have purchased these products.  And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.

People spend crazy amounts on lots of stuff...but a Rolex tells time well and makes a statement...a Bucati goes really fast while turning heads and definitely makes a statement.  Expensive cables, wires, ICs, PCs, USB/Ethernet cables and other digital connects, IMO, do nothing beyond what similar basic, good quality, inexpensive (eg: Monoprice) products do.  

Not trying to change anyone's mind...just pointing out scientific reality as I see it.
for people that experience massive changes with cable changes, I'd like to do an experiment where i switch out the cables secretly to something far more modest and see if they notice.
So you contradict yourself with your own statement of:

' And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.'

Yes, perception. I use the term jaw dropping, because in my system that's what I hear as well as others in the house who had no clue that I installed said cables.  Also, I have no skin in the game and honestly, I paid more for my pair of Niagara that I'm about to list for sale.

You don't hear any difference and that's fine.  Let me know when you have heard MY system so you can make that statement as fact please. ha.

Yes, you point out scientific reality.  Have you measure the cables I'm personally using?  I know you haven't.  Maybe there aren't measurements available yet that show the differences. I personally don't know, nor do I care as I trust my ears.  Some of the differences in cables deals with how they shield interferrences, so how can you make a statement about scientific reality saying you can't hear a difference.  The reality is that over the years we've been able to take measurements that we couldn't in the past.  

I used to work in the gold industry selling product to the dental and jewelry industry.  The metallurgist was also a budding audiophile and we used to talk all the time about cable properties  and how it affects sound.  We discussed grain boundaries and grain size etc..  There are many differences in the metallurgy of these high end cables. Just because some folks who claim to be scientists come on threads like this and post as though their feelings are supported by science and therefore are the best opinion, are not correct as many of these designs are based on science and measurable.  That is a fact.

I'll just wait for your response telling me that your position is correct.  :)