Cartridges: Complete Scam?

From good to exquisite is a long way, and many thousands of dollars.

If you have a good rig, you only need a "good" cartridge, an exquisite one would be a waste of money. I assume you know that a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link, meaning that an expensive cartridge will do you no good without "expensive" matching tone arm and turntable.

Last but not least is, how good is your hearing? When you take into account all these factors, an expensive cartridge might be a waste of money for you.

For the record, for me, I categorically and respectfully disagree with your postulate.  OK?  My rebuttal is only soft in that you are free to disagree with me, but I would take it less seriously until you have done some critical listening yourself.  

Others here are posting based on their personal experience, and their level of experience with “vintage” cartridges and their implementation might be considerably greater than my own.  But I have carefully listened to a lot of high end systems starting in the early 70s, and the sum of the parts for a high end analog system sounds very different from then to now.  For me.  So of course is the price, which like everything has inflated due to monetary “inflation”, inflated expectations, inflated egos, and real advances in technologies, materials and effort.

In 1970, a “very good” but not SOTA turntable was $150, and a very good cartridge perhaps half to 3/4 of that.  In today’s dollars, that would be about $1500.  It is possible that you could buy a new setup with an mm cartidge for that amount that would sound as good as the 1970s combo, but I doubt it. In those days the vintage system would be played through the phono pre built into the amplifier and all gear connected using zip cord and skinny unsheilded RCAs.

Going the other way, a “very good” but not SOTA current analog front end with an MC cartridge and an outboard phono preamp would cost say $20,000 new.  That is about $3,300 in 1970 dollars, which would be an unheard of amount to spend on a part of your hifi at the time for anyone but a movie producer. Inflation of all kinds in effect here.

All that said, the current “very good” system would likely sound better connected to the same modern backend than the 1970s “very good” system.

The system I described in my first post as revelatory was set up by Peter McGrath of Wilson Audio and Michael Fremer of Stereophile and Analog Planet and was very high end using Lyra cartridge, SME table, ARC electronics, Transparent cables and large Wilson speakers (Alexandria?). It cost probably $350,000.  

That is $70,000 in mid seventies dollars.  My guess is that would be a reasonable investment for a midling recording studio at the time.  Home system?  You would be laughed off my island, but maybe you ran with a different crowd at the time. Nothing I heard outside of a well engineered rock concert or well designed concert hall in the 1970s could come close to what came out of the system set up by Fremer and McGrath.  Nothing else actually ever has.

So you ask “Cartridges: Complete Scam?  I say no. The upper end of MC cartridges today played in a very high end system will sound more neutral, revealing and faster than high end vintage cartridges.  In the middle range you really have to listen to different pickups in your system to decide what works and what does not, and where the value is.  For you.

Not asking anyone to agree with me — in fact I’m inviting disagreement. "Nah those guys are full of it there’s a big difference when you move up the line," could be one response. But instead I’m getting roundabout confirmations. Only one responder has denied it, albeit in a very noncommittal way.

Yes, but you don’t have to come at things from a vitriolic over amped negative standpoint as an opening motion.

If you tried this at a bar, with strangers, you’d probably wake up with a few missing teeth.

No need to treat people here, who are essentially strangers, with the same psychological launching stratagem.

You are making for a bad forum, and harming other people’s businesses and lives for no good reason. The only thing seen, seemingly, is a lack of awareness and the effect this lack has on others.

It might make for OK conversation with people you know and who know you and are right there in front of you. But good text as the single communication.... it does not make.

Saying “an expensive cartridge sounds great in an expensive system” isn’t answering the question, it’s simply punting it into the realm where the premise can’t be easily tested. In fact I do go to audio shows, most recently Capital Audiofest which was dominated by vinyl systems. I ended up buying a MoFi StudioDeck based on the performance of the MoFi room there that was running a $2k table + cartridge bundle. My StudioDeck is a $1,150 bundle with a $200 Studio Tracker cartridge. Here’s the thing: the MoFi room was also running TAD Evolution Ones and high end electronics, so OF COURSE it was going to sound good...I was impressed with such a “modest” front end was up to it though. The question is: would moving up from its $500 MM to, say, a $4K MC result in a significant sonic improvement...or not? Likewise, would moving up from my $200 cartridge to, say, a $2k range cartridge result in a significant improvement in sound?

There seems to be a strong sentiment online that NO, there wouldn’t be a large improvement. The sound may change, but not improve by any significant amount. If that’s true, that seems to suggest that the high-end cartridge industry is just peddling woo to vulnerable audiophiles.

OP- you got a lot of sarcastic responses to your original post, which many interpreted as trolling. Assuming that is not the case, then the answer is "It depends". It depends on the resolution of the rest of your system and how carefully it is set up. And then of course there is your own hearing and your own values. So properly set-up, on a properly matched arm of commensurate quality, on table of similar quality, with proper interconnects, fed into a good phono/ line stage and an appropriate amplifier properly matched to high resolution speakers, most people can "hear" the difference between a $200 bundled cartridge and a $2000 cartridge. OTOH, if you are dropping that $2K cart into an entry level TT with a $200 phono stage, you probably will not hear much difference. If you put top of the line tires on a Chevy Malibu, it’s not going make significantly better lap times on a race course. And yes, at the highest end we are talking different flavors of excellence. Maybe even the subtle distinctions between sirloin and rib-eye to make another analogy. Or between two different vintages of wine from the same vineyard. Some folks are happy with very good or even excellent, some folks want superb! It is also true that the law of diminishing returns is very strict at the bleeding edge. And that there are folks who automatically assume if it costs more, it’s better. T’aint so ;-)

If you are considering how to upgrade your analog front end, and you provide some additional info (primarily your phono/line stage, and amplifier) and what your budget is, you will get some good advice.  For example, the Denon 103R is considered by many to be in the sweet spot of moderately priced phono cartridges. It costs under $400.00.  But you have to have a phono stage with enough gain to handle a low output moving coil cartridge, or you have to buy a step-up transformer or head-amp to bring the 0.25 mV output up to the level that a typical phono stage can properly amplify.