I think every amp should have meters mainly because I like them. I use the meter screen on my Squeezebox Touch at night because, as I said, I like them. Meters will improve the sound of any amp because they involve your otherwise not involved (for listening anyway) eyeballs that can become jealous of your ears and cause trouble. You want trouble to break out in your head? No? I rest my case.
Which watts are the right watts in SS amps?
Hello Sports Fans!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
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- 45 posts total
Okay, I will bounce in here with a topic that NOBODY has actually put forth: POWER SUPPLY. There has been a lot of technical discussion above about how and why and if an amp can double the power on half the resistance. In my opinion, this idea of doubling power really doesn't matter. The major factor of these larger amps is the power supply. This is one of the primary reasons why people buy 500 watt or 1,000 watt monoblocks. The power supply (i.e. transformer and capacitor bank) are large enough where it does not allow a radical drop in voltage when music transients hit. This can be a large drop or even a tiny drop/fluctuation in voltage (even on somewhat quite music). With a large power supply, you will have smoother and more constant available voltage when the transistor circuits pull current to power the speaker. The amount of watts produced is almost a meaningless number because you realistically won't ever use more than 30-50 watts anyways. The power supply in larger amps is a large reason why the larger amps sound better, less harsh, smoother/fuller response, stronger bass, no brightness/clipping, more refined sound, etc. The difference between the 400 watt monoblock and a 500 watt monoblock is actually very little. However, the difference between a 100 watt and 400 watt is pretty significant. The other factor is whether the amp will be stable at 4 ohms or even 2 ohms (as some speakers definitely do drop down to 2-3 ohms in the bass area). This is the other area where power supply has a significant difference. Obviously, different amps are voiced differently even though they are sized the same. |
Okay, I will bounce in here with a topic that NOBODY has actually put forth: POWER SUPPLY.As I said in my first post, were only half the way there https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1491862 Of course power supply and good circuit topology design is also needed, but that should be discussed in posts by themselves, otherwise this thread will end up all over the place. Let’s just assume in this thread the power supply and circuit topology are unsurpassed in design and quality, and can give infinite current. Cheers George |
I swing both ways. One system has a 70 wpc tube power amp and my other two systems use class A amps that will drive any speaker made (bought them from a guy using them to run Apogee Scintillas, possibly the most difficult load out there - 1 ohm and only 73dB efficient - they require up to 60 amps at times). I like 'stiff' power supplies, but it is horses for courses - an easy load doesn't mandate a big power supply in an amp which may not sounds as good as a more modest amp with much less capable power supply. |
This summer I went tube-a line stage first, and a Bob Latino St-120 later. A guy reviewed the St-120, who had a Mac Ml275 (recent variant) in a main system. He bought and built the ST-120 kit. In an honest A-B comparison, the Latino, that costs about $2K, bested the $6k Mac. There is good stuff and trash at all price points. I love mine-very smooth and full, great resolution and harmonic structure. After 12 years playing in hi-end, can't match sound of tubes in SS unless you have a big wallet to draw on. Good Luck. |
- 45 posts total