Thiel Owners

Happy Friday- All.

Happy Friday fellow Thiel owners & fans!

Ok, considering my earlier posts up above (and great feedback from jafant, oblgny & prof), I am now focusing on either Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research for pre- & amplification.  I will be going the pre-owned route, as I just can't get my head around the full-price of new gear these days...but, that's a different discussion.

How would you compare the sonic characteristics between the two, i.e. which is warmer, more revealing, has better high, better lows, etc.?

Also, is going all-tube (in pre-amp & amp) going to rob me of too much speed, attack and bottom-end "slam" that I've grown accustomed to from solid-state gear?  

In full disclosure, I posted this same query in the "Amps Preamps" forum as well.

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions...Enjoy the music!

Arvin

Arvin
 
The classic description of CJ vs AR tube amps is the CJs being “warm and golden toned” almost a romantic presentation with the AR being more nuetral with a whitish/grey cast to the sound.   That’s exactly what my ears have heard every time I’ve compared 

My experience comparing the two agrees.  My friend has also had AR tube amps and I’ve brought over my CJ amps to his place and I much preferred the CJ amps.   I find the AR sound to have its own signature, a sort of bleached character that to me renders vocal and instrumental tones more in black and white vs the warmer tone of the CJs.   My friend felt the CJs were more gorgeous sounding - wants them in his system when he hears them - but sticks to AR for what he feels is a combination of tube virtues and neutrality.  I find the CJ sound to actually remind me of real life vs the AR sound, but that’s of course my subjective assessment. 

As for bass, the CJs I own have the most overall coherent sound I’ve heard in a tube amp - look at the Stereophile review as Michael Fremer nails their sound.

That said, the 12s have seemed sometimes to shelve off the lowest bass frequencies.  Some other amps I’ve tried seemed for whatever reason to go a bit deeper in the bass and I don’t know what would account for this, if I’m fact I’m hearing that accurately.   But the sound with the Thiels is still plenty deep, and the bass is in virtually perfect pitch control to my ears.

Arvin,

I have been puzzled by prof's impression of AR tube amps, but I speak with very little experience with other tube amps since the only tube gear I have owned have been AR. I have moved up the AR chain starting with an integrated VSi60, then to a Ref110, Ref75, Ref150, Ref150SE then back to the Ref 150 (Ref 5SE preamp and Modwright Oppo BDP105). I can compare with other solid state amps including Krell, Exposure and Bryston.

To my ears, tubes bring out the best in my Thiel CS3.6s. Unless you listen to music over 95dB, I would encourage you to find a preowned VSi60 and listen with your Thiels. If you like the quality of sound but want it louder with more punch, then slowly upgrade the AR chain. If not, you can usually sell for the same price you purchased on Audiogon at the cost of shipping. These have been selling for as low as $2500 and there are 2 I see on usaudiomart now.

Jon

Jon,

I would never think that someone should presume a subjective impression like mine is objectively the case.  The AR amps are obviously very highly regarded with lots of happy owners, and in no way would I say the CJ amps are "better."  Just a bit different. 

What I found fascinating, though, when I was in heavy amplifier audition mode years ago, was that my audio companions concurred on exactly the same differences I described between the CJ and AR amps.
But more interesting was...after I'd done my own comparisons...to read both plenty of audiophile comments on line, and reviewers noting just what I heard in the AR house sound.   You can see an indication of this reputation here:

Some reviewers have commented that earlier Audio Research amplifiers suffered from a certain lightening of tonal color, i.e., a threadbare or whitish quality.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audio-research-reference-250-se-amplifier/

So although the reviewer states the AR amp under review doesn't suffer from this, clearly the AR house sound has some reputation that precedes it.  (And numerous review have mentioned it over the years.  John Atkinson has described some AR amps as "a little too much of the Minnesota snow blowing through it for my tastes.")

By no means do I mean to say there's anything wrong about AR amps, and at this point in time I haven't even heard most of them.  I'm only mentioning all this because you mentioned being confused about what I reported in listening to AR amps, which seems to suggest I may be the only one who hears them that way, or that you may have been unaware AR has had a reputation for a certain house sound.  The "whiter" AR sound has often been contrasted to the "golden glow" CJ house sound over the years.

I always felt AR amps did some things better than CJ amps - control, frequency extension, clarity etc.  I just prefer the somewhat older CJ sound.