beetlemania,
No that doesn't sound insincere. I think Jim was a pretty straight-shooter, so that suggests he believes he heard the difference. Though I would have been interested in a longer conversation with Jim, to draw him out on the subject and see how he may nuance things.
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Though I would have been interested in a longer conversation with Jim,
to draw him out on the subject and see how he may nuance things.
Well, I think it's telling that he called the Clarity Caps "boutique" capacitors. That sounds quite condescending to me. My supposition is that he was pretty firmly in the "objectivist camp" (measurements tell you everything you need to know) for most of his career and only reluctantly admitted, towards the end of his life,
that measurements don't tell you everything. There is no doubt that his designs measure superbly well (except as measured by Stereophile - JA's "quasi-anechoic" method limits the mic distance to a mere 50"). Soundstage's measurements of the CS2.4, for example, are among the best they have examined in terms of flat frequency response and low distortion. And I consider his drivers to be among the best ever made - near-pistonic behavior albeit handicapped by the slow roll-off of the first order filters. But that quote to Jeff Fritz, shortly before Thiel's passing, clearly indicates that he recognized that not all sonic improvements can be quantified by machines. |
Beetlemania,
Your remark "I'll venture to guess that a tricked-out CS2.4 would retail for $10-15K but compete sonically with other designs up to $40K. A tricked-out CS3.7 might retail in low $20Ks but be considered as among the best speakers available" got me to thinking. I'd certainly be interested in something like that for my 3.7s, not that I'm unhappy with them in their current incarnation! It certainly would be an opportunity for an enterprising individual to offer that kind of mod service. FWIW, eBay lists a "crossover upgrade service" for Thiels -- I have not explored this though.
Any savvy technicians out there with knowledge of the Thiel crossovers?
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@jafant
There is an improvement between the CS 2.4 / CS 2.4SE, believe me, I
spent many hours of listening to ensure that nothing was remissed.
So, you directly compared the two models? Neither of the webzine reviewers were able to make that comparison. I heard the original CS2.4 probably 12 years so I really don't have a reliable reference for how the SE version is better. All I know is that the SE version is incredible! Gotta give credit to my source and amp, but the Thiels are reproducing their signal superbly well. |
FWIW, eBay lists a "crossover upgrade service" for Thiels -- I have not explored this though. Yes, I saw this and exchanged a couple of e-mails with him. Me: I am considering buying Thiel CS2.4s and am curious about your crossover upgrade. What does this entail? Is it similar or better than the CS2.4SE crossover with Clarity Cap capacitors? Do you need the speaker or would I install the new crossover myself? If the former, can you upgrade the wiring at the same time? Also, there is a pair of 2.4s on ebay right now but they lack the cable nut. Do you have any ideas for replacement of those (I have Cardas cables with the spade connection)? Him: You get clarity cap with vishey bypass in the tweeter section. Electrolytic capacitors will be replaced with new ones as they go bad after 20-30 years, also where possible electrolytics will be replaced with film caps or bypassed to improve performance. Inductors will be upgraded as needed with larger awg wire type and resistors in the tweeter section direct path will be replaced with film resistors or mundorf type.
Upgrade cost is $210 each.
The terminal posts on the back can be replaced. Not sure if I can find just the nuts. Me: So, $420 for the pair. Is this done in your shop or do I install the new boards myself?
If the terminal posts are replaced, can the new terminals be the Cardas clamps? Can it be re-configured for bi-wiring? Him: Yes this will be done at my lab and fully tested on the analyzer before shipping.
Yes you can go bi-wire, but fancy terminal posts can get quite expensive and using 4 of them will increase the price. If you have a specific terminal post you would like to use, let me know, send me the link.
Once we decide on all the detail we can figure out a final price.
Here is my website to understand more of what I do. I normally design as a consultant for some brand speakers, but work has been slow and am doing this ebay thing for the time being.
Nedlab.com Seems promising to me. Who wants to go first? Might also be worth asking Rob Gillium if he offers upgrades for the crossovers. What we really need is a geek who took the time to experiment and listen with a bunch of parts combinations (it sounds like Jim Thiel did this when he selected the Clarity Caps). This is why, IMO, Wilson speakers perform as well as they do. The basic technology and drivers are, um, basic. But Dave Wilson, apparently, is a careful listener and finely tweaked his cabinets, crossovers and wiring accordingly. The final products is not without flaws but far better than otherwise. |
