Jazz for aficionados

***** Rok, I know Wynton is your main man, but Africa in "hard-bop" is truly rediculous. That's where the trolly jumped the tracks; he might as well said that African Americans are speaking in "Ojibway" or some tribal language without knowing it.*****

I didn't read the article, but I have heard it all before.  SOME black people love the idea of anything being traced back to Africa.   They want so badly want to have an 'Old Country', like the European groups in this country.   They are in search of their 'culture', while overlooking the tremendous contributions they have made to this culture.They think saying something is from Africa gives it gravitas and importance.  BS!

Back in the day a lot of black folk wore their hair in an 'Afro' style, well, I have never seen Africans wear their hair like that, and I knew quite a few in Germany and in college.   We went through the Dashiki stuff.   We give our children stupid names, thinking they are African in origin.  BS!! They also want to be African partly because they felt rejected by this country.   A Psychiatrist would have a field day figuring all this out.   It's complicated.

So, if a Jazz player has a choice of saying my music originated on a cotton plantation in Mississippi(for instance), or in some mythical Kingdom in Africa, guess what sports fans?   Remember, we have also been convinced that the most horrible / degrading thing a human being can be required to do, is pick cotton.

Wynton was saying what was expected of him.   Nothing more.   If that's the price to stay at Lincoln Center, so be it.   He is still the most important man in Jazz.

Cheers

******"First, the fact that any one listener cannot “hear” African rhythms as the listener knows and understands them in jazz does not mean that those rhythms are not there; or, at least, serve as the foundation for those jazz rhythms as they are understood. It is like insisting that European based chord progressions and harmony do not exist in the music because the listener cannot hear them as such."******

The Frogman is saying that just because we amateurs(you & me) can't hear the African stuff as we understand African stuff, i.e. Hollywood, that does not mean the African stuff is not there.

That's a fair statement.

HOWEVER, I have asked The Frogman on many occasions to post a clip of Jazz in which he can then point out to us the African stuff as we listen.   Of course he would also have to compare it with indigenous African music from the 17th century.   Nothing!

Apparently he is accepting this stuff on blind faith.

Food for thought.   Back in the 20s and early 30s, white people said they had invented Jazz.  Where was the African crowd then?   Just asking.

Cheers

Rok, you leave no recourse but to be blunt. Think about all the times that you have, in a rare moment of magnanimity (unsolicited), said “I just love it when the Frogman points out the fine details in music”; or something to that effect. When you don’t need to have those things pointed out to you and you, yourself, can hear and point some of those details out to others here is when you will be able to hear the African influence and connection to jazz. Or, simply be less cynical and have some faith (not blind) that there are some (and I don’t mean me) who study this kind of stuff on a very high level and know what they are talking about; then use that as a starting point for learning to hear those details. Wynton’s demonstration is actually excellent. If you can’t grasp what he is pointing out, I don’t know what to tell you; it’s pretty clear.

**** Wynton was saying what was expected of him. Nothing more. ****

Pathetic. Again no recourse but to be blunt; you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Btw, I never referred to you or O-10 as amateurs; I wouldn’t do that.

O-10, I did read your post. I did not comment on the clips (not that I thought it was a requirement 🤨) for the simple reason that with the African rhythm dispute so fresh I did not want to add any fuel to the fire by pointing out that the “Moanin” clip that you posted three times does not have Pepper Adams playing on it. The baritone player is Ronnie Cuber, the player that pryso will likely hear when he goes to hear “Mingus Dynasty”. The last “Moanin” clip that you posted by itself is with Pepper Adams. Btw, I don’t know why Rok thought they were better than the originals; I’ll let him speak for himself. Pepper Adams could not have been the reason for why he liked that Moanin better since it wasn’t Pepper. Btw, with so many versions of Tunisia, which do you consider the “original”? For me it would have to be Dizzy’s original, no?

Rok, I want you to know that I agree with your post in it's entirety.

First and foremost, I knew personally, professional musicians who played "Hard-Bop", and they would have laughed at you, coming up with this African crap.  Like they were playing it but didn't even know it.  

Yes, he is the most important man in jazz, but since "Mr. Cholly" determines that...... but "Mr. Cholly" determines everything.