subwoofers and panels don't mix

Soundlabs are reviewed as having very good realistic bass, so a sub should not be necessary.
However before I got the Soundlabs I was going to try out a Klipschorn bass unit that I managed to get hold of - my theory is that it would make the ideal sub

I agree with Johnk - stay away from bass bins - far away.

Gordon Holt used Soundlabs (very fast) for many years before switching to ATC speakers (fast with panel-like mids and more dynamics). An 0.1/15 ATC sub will probably integrate with panels as good as if not better than most anything else - only problem is they are $7K which is like twice what a good JL subwoofer costs. If budget constrains you then check out a JL F112 first and see how that sounds (it is great value for a tight/fast sub).

On another point - how would you stop the bass from a poweful sub (like a JL or ATC) from interfering with the panels - surely the giant panel surfaces will be influenced by the air vibrations in the room. What I mean is this - when I play music loud then I can feel all the surfaces vibrating as they respond to airborne LF vibrations. Obviously a woofer with a huge magnet will be tightly controlled and remain unaffected - this is unlikley to be th case for a huge surface area of a panel in a relatively weak force field.

Hey guys, I ran across some interesting developments here and thought they might bear out on what we are discussing.

Hsu has a new subwoofer (not so new now, but newer than the latest post above) and it might help us with panel integration. It is called the VTF-15H and while it is a bit bigger than my VTF3-HO (11.5 inch woofer vs 15) that is not in particular what I care about.

It has a 'sealed mode' (meaning --> quick/fast) *and* it has extensive tunability features that may make it so we can tune it to a more panel-friendly state. I will not be acquiring one anytime soon :), so someone else who owns one or who can somehow borrow one and who has 1.7/3.6/etc. will have to test if they feel so inclined, but this looks very promising.

It has an alterable Q Factor, as well as an alterable EQ. Well, anyhow, I'll just let this owner explain it:

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=78790&postcount=88

(Please do read that - that is the point of this post.)

And here is a professional review:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/hsu-vtf-15h-subwoofer

So, will this help? It very well could be!!

I'd love it if someone who really knows subs could read all the literature on the tune-ability of it and comment - maybe it is all just eq, or maybe it can change other properties of the sound to make it blend with panels better. And the sealed mode will help, someone mentioned that above - the VTF-3HO that I have doesn't do that, but this new one does.

And - I think we are a funny group, crossing over at 45 Hz (at least for 3.6/3.7 owners), so our sub needs are different than most. I think what this newer sub can do if you are crossing over at 70 or 80 will definitely be very very significant (1.6/1.7, other lower-bass e-stat owners)!

11-21-11: Lightminer
Hsu has a new subwoofer ... called the VTF-15H ... [which] ... has a 'sealed mode' (meaning --> quick/fast) *and* it has extensive tunability features that may make it so we can tune it to a more panel-friendly state.

SVS also offers this feature in their top line box sub, the PB13-Ultra. It has three ports and three plugs, making for four lower extent rolloff profiles. The 13" driver itself is massive and built for very long throw--reminds me of the JL driver. Follow the live link to see the description, the pic of the driver, and the four frequency response curves from sealed, one, two, or three open ports.

It's been five years since this thread was started. In the last few years, I think several sub contenders have come out with more configurability, speed, and power to mesh with panel speakers. Candidates include JL, the Velodyne DD+ series, the top line Hsu's, and the SVS's.

I've heard a pair of JL Fathom F212s mated to a pair of Magnepan 20.1s and it was seamless. I heard it for a couple hours with a professional setup driven by Ayre electronics and Transparent cable throughout.

I'd believe that - a pair of F212's seems to be the current state of the art from what I've read, never heard them. The fun part of the Hsu 15H is they are 850 each! Basically free compared to the JLs :).

I still think its crazy that we are doing this for 16 - 45 Hz, but on those few tracks, it sure does make a gigantic difference!

The problem with matching subs to panels is poor transient response in many subwoofers, excessive driver excursions and the problem of the sub sounding best in placements that doesn't mate best to loudspeaker in the position sub sounds best in. With panels 2 or more large cone limited excursion drivers match best. Multiple sub bass sources again are the better match.