2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,338 posts
 
The chances of a one sound HEA system reproducing the actual sound (sounds) of a recording is far fetched at best.


Semantics perhaps but its not far fetched at all if the goal us to produce the sound of a recording. Some of course will do it better than others. Some others still might better please particular individuals.  That's kinda what makes the home audio world go round.

If you mean reproducing the original performed sounds that were captured in say a mixed studio recording recording, that would be a neat trick in many cases akin to seeing the real life detail of water lilies when viewing a Monet abstraction. Some good quality simple miked, mixed, and mastered live recordings (very rare), not so seemingly impossible.


michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

"The biggest choice in HEA of course is whether to select a guru or be your own."

My experience has been all the above. Attitudes and egos aside, there's that musical uniqueness to everyone. Some you have to look harder (that's a drag) but most have their values because of what they have either experienced or what they have read. Both have a value and there are all levels of knowledge.

for example, reading a reviewer from a magazine

For some this gives a certain level of info, measurements and comfort. For myself it's a door opener only, an infomercial. First thing I do, since I have learned about mass is look at the chassis, next I look inside to see how cramped the parts are. Next thing I do is look at the different sizes of parts and wire. Next are the parts bolted down. Then I look for dampeners and things like how the power wires go from the outlet to the board and transformer. Once I get the lay of the land I begin to set the component free so I can hear what is going on.

Now not thinking of price and marketing, if I get two components in and one is built to allow the signal flow without blockage and the other is a tank, I can make a fairly reasonable guess that the simple unit (tuned) is going to beatup on the over built one. This has proven to be the case I would wager 98% of the time.

I say this because for me personally a guru looks deeper than the cover. That being the case empirically exploring units using this paradigm it puts a certain shortcut into play. Gurus know the shortcuts and gurus also don't waste time exploring the same thing over and over trying to get to the sound. I see this again and again with expensive products. Having heavy chassis and over built parts and crossovers takes points away from the status of guru-ism. For me, speakers that need complicated crossovers are speakers (cabinet and drivers) that needed to be fixed. The perfect speaker is one that can work in many rooms and with many components. That to me means a speaker that is tunable, built like a musical instrument, and one that has one or two parts to the crossover. For components, light weight, parts that are relatively similar in size (also low mass), an easy to tune chassis and a nice layout of space on the board. Also a resonant board so the parts can gel. Hardly ever with a top cover. And limited to no shielding. Shielding is a choice to be made by the listener after the unit is setup and has a chance to interact with the environment. Pretty much good products are ones that can be made to produce the sound desired after they have been acclimated to a listeners space.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi mapman

I’d have to leave that one up to the listeners themselves. Of course most of the folks who come to me are looking for that next step or even their ultimate setup including the room built variable.

This is just me as an onlooker, but most of the threads I see there are folks looking for change. Or at least the guys who have emailed me from here are looking to take a step. Not even necessarily a purchase, but a further step in their method.

Also guys keep in mind I'm not here to dictate, but instead to share the options when tuning in a system. Some of you have no desire to change anything and that's way cool, but there are many more looking toward the variables.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

jpsreno
77 posts
 
I'll probably get chased off this tread but I listen to music, I'm not an engineer, nor am I someone tring to sell anything (as so many seem to be).  I listen to music and want to get as close as I can afford, without being overly obtrusive to my living space, to the sound I hear sitting anywhere in the acustically perfect (thank you Louis Sullivan) Auditorium Theartre in Chicago.  If I put Muddy Waters on I want to be taken back to the Fathers and Sons concert, if it's Layla, i want to be transported to hearing Eric and Dwayne's interplay. I want "Tommy" to have impact.  Same goes for MIles or Trane or Solti, or Callas, Yo Yo Ma etc.   Do certain elements  make a technical difference, I can't tell from these forums because they argue from all sides with no closure.   But when I listento my system I feel some do some don't.  But if I like the sound and it transports me, I'll figure out a way to incorporate it.    
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,868 posts
 

Excellent post shadorne. Yup, I neglected to cover the matter of pitch bend---the phenomenon where the tone of the drum (generally) drops as it’s sustain subsides, a sound I love. I too use Evans, their kick heads exclusively. I for years taped feminine minipads on my drumheads to damp the high ring, but that’s no longer necessary---self damped heads are now plentiful.

I play vintage---Ludwig’s brass-shell snare drums from the 1920’s (I have four), and the Black Beauty from the 70’s (in both 5" and 6-1/2" depths) being my favorites. I have just about all American-made sets from the 40’s through the early 70’s---Camco, Gretsch, Leedy, Ludwig, Radio King, Rogers, and Slingerland.. Did I leave any out? ;-). They all have 24" kicks, and I collect the Black Diamond Pearl finish, hence my AudiogoN moniker.

My use of the term tensioned in place of tuned was done, yes, to make a point. Tuned is of course the term commonly used, but it is used loosely, not literally. My point was, that to say a drum can go out-of-tune when moved from one room to another in nonsense, for the reasons I stated. Unless, that is, one is speaking of something other than pitch. It’s timbre (the relative strengths of it’s fundamentals, overtones/harmonics, and partials) can change, as can it’s sustain, but not it’s pitch. And that is not a matter of semantics.

Drum "tuning" is a talent not all drummers possess. The studio guys are the best---Hal Blaine, Jim Gordon, Keltner, Roger Hawkins (he’s on all the Jerry Wexler-produced Muscle Shoals recordings), Kenny Buttrey (Neil Young’s Harvest album), all masters. And then there is Levon Helm; listen to the sound of his drums on The Band’s "The Weight". As good as it gets!



More to discover