Surprised

Many years ago had 7.1 system with a sub the sound was rubbish, Moved to 2 floorstanders with a sub to found out it’s extremely difficult to get the sub tuned correctly now my Proac floorstanders go down to 25 Hz and driven with the McIntosh really making the sub unnecessary.Bookshelfs in principle can’t produce full body sound as floorstanders neither low bottom end unless you you’re buying extremely expensive high end bookshelfs that obviously will reuquier expnensive powerful amplification,cables and stands.

Well, I  own a DEQX Preamp and one of its features is a very sophisticated range of controls to intergrade the subs (JL F-113) very nicely.

ozzy

I've owned a REL Q150e (10" front firing 150 watt) for 7 or 8 years and eventually added a Q108II (8" downfiring 100 watts). Both were purchased used but in great shape for 200 buck each, and they still show up on Ebay or wherever for close to that price...highly recommended. Once you get the phase correct these things are amazing, easy to adjust the level (no DSP for me), and move around. They work well with small monitors (I have a friend who's way into tiny English 3/5a type speakers and he matches 'em with one small REL sub and it sounds glorious) or floorstanders, and I currently use these with Klipsch Heresy IIIs that have accurate bass to only around 58hz so the subs are necessary. Used RELs...a no brainer if there ever was one.

oldschool1,

Also it’s important to have the sub the same distance from your listening position assuring there is no phase shift. A common mistake is stuffing a sub in the corner and their mains are 2-3 feet forward of them. This creates a timing issue as the mains will reach your ears before the sub.

....Too much overlap and it sounds like mud. Not enough and there’s a disconnect. Trick is to find that sweet spot.

But I think all that speaks to one of kosst_amojan’s point:

First, it a more technically complicated approach.

It really IS a much more arduous and involved process to seamlessly integrate a subwoofer. I and many others know this from experience.
One of the claims often made about subwoofers is that it is easier to set up for excellent sound since you can place the satellite - mid frequencies upward - where it sounds best, and the bass drivers - sub - where they sound best. Whereas with a floor standing speaker you are stuck moving both around at the same time, making it "harder" to integrate in to the room.

But while that contains some truth, it's also misses some truth:  in one case you are finding the best spot for one speaker, in the other (subs) you have to find the best spot for TWO separate speaker systems. And finding the right spot for a sub is just as finicky as for placing a full range speaker anywhere.
As you say "trick is finding the right spot" for seamless integration.

I’ve placed a great many large floor standing speakers in my room and found beautifully integrated sound with little problem. But incorporating my new subwoofers has been a whole new ballgame and level of complexity. It’s not for nothing that many subwoofer fans say you’d better be using microphones, a computer, software etc to read and dial in subwoofers. Or you are doing the "subwoofer" crawl on your hands and knees hoping you find a spot your subwoofer can practically be put, and then adjusting phase, crossovers, etc.

Further, if you go with the idea that subs have to be near the mains, then you end up with TWO speaker systems having to be placed in the room near each other - a floor standing speaker, or stand mounted speaker, now with a big ol’ sub - or two subs...or more!.... right nearby. Aside from IMO being even more unsightly than a single elegant floor standing speaker, it essentially takes up even more floor space.

Can a sub be integrated really seamlessly to please the pickiest of audiophiles? Probably (though I’ve yet to hear it). And I’m hoping on that because I’ve bought subs and a crossover and I’m continuing to experiment.

But to really get the most benefit one essentially enters the realm of sort of becoming part of the speaker designing process - altering crossover frequencies, adding new drivers, etc. That’s not for the faint of heart and my ears tell me it’s often not nearly as successful as I’d like, or as I hear from any number of full range speakers where the designer has done all the work.

prof,

I must rebut to some of your post and this will apply to all of "us". First, we all have different speakers, room conditions, subwoofers, and ideas of what information is supposed to sound like.

Those who use a subwoofer OTHER than a REL, you basically have one way to connect it to your pre amp, through LFE. There are other methods however, that is the most common connection scheme. The REL connects not only to LFE but also high level. High level for those unfamiliar is straight to the amplifiers binding post where your speakers are connected. This is something unique to REL. It allows the same signal signature to reach the sub as the speakers. The LFE, well that's a no brainer. Essentially setting up a REL is a two stage process. Each connection scheme is set up individually without the other connected. Imagine having two subwoofers in one.

Next, subwoofer placement when it's a compliment to an individual speaker like mine is set up, is adjacent to the speaker. NOT in the corner of the room. If you have ONE subwoofer and looking to take advantage of room gain, then you do the sub crawl or use elaborate set-up methods. I'm not even gonna go into how a single sub is set up in a room as it is an art and you still end up "hearing" where the sub is. I don't care how good your sub is. There will be places in the room that will be energized more than others. That is why multiple subs are ideal.

My subs for this purpose are set up in stereo. My left main has it's own dedicated sub and so does the right. Essentially my "bookshelf" speakers, which were very pricey compared to what you're gonna get from most manufacturers and very "high-end", are very accurate and sound incredible. If you haven't auditioned a Paradigm Signature Series speaker, go hear for yourself before grouping them into a category of "budget" solutions. When you read a specification like the Signature S2, just knowing it can perform to ±2dB from 52 Hz - 45 kHz isn't enough. It's how accurate and tonal quality. And again, we all have different ears, right? With all that said, marrying a sub to each main speaker I essentially have the same as a floor stander with a HUGE benefit, a floor stander has a small driver usually 6-8 inches which can't possibly reach below 20 Hz as my 12" REL can and does. For those who prefer a floor stander, thats great. They're compact and take up little real estate on your listening floor. Having a stereo bookshelf and stereo subs, more real estate taken up but the advantage of dynamic range, realism of reproduction, and overall room energizing is far superior to having one sub stuck in a corner. I don't care what anyone says, 30 Hz IS directional resulting in hearing exactly where that sub is located.

That's my humble thoughts of stereo subs. IMO, the ONLY way to go! For watching movies, I have a third REL R-528 in the rear of the room center of the wall. This sub is only active for LFE. When a movie is playing and the .1 channel (LFE) is active, my listening position is center of the triangle of subs. You can not detect where any of my subs are from any intended listening position in the room.

To finish the system, I have a REL T-9 connected high level only to my center channel which is a Paradigm CC-690. Sure I could connect my center channel sub LFE as well but it's not needed. Oh btw, the REL R-528 sports a 500 watts RMS Class D amplifier. Doesn't get any better!

For those wanting help tuning their REL, here is a tutorial I used. It's a great read and very helpful:
https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/115000822488-How-To-Tune-My-REL

In closing, you probably have figured out I am a big fan of REL. That is because having a full set of them, I know their potential, understand their technology and how to set them up properly. They are unlike any other conventional sub out there. They are actually a "sub base" speaker than a subwoofer. I am not stating they are the best sub in the world. That is a matter of personal taste and why there are so many different manufacturers of subs. Although never heard the SVS, Rhythmik, or HSU, I understand they are outstanding products and for home theater, are great for the designed purpose. There are no subs out there more "musical" than the REL sub base speaker, hands down!