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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


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analogluvr
859 posts
 
Lol couple of great posts there guys, and you hit the nail on the head kosst. 
 The thing is, unfortunately 99% of these guys have their mind made up and it'll never change. I think Elizabeth mentioned earlier on in this thread, or one of the other ones about snake oil, that it's a herd mentality. She's absolutely right.  These guys that believe in the snake oil magic voodoo will never change as they don't wanna admit they are wrong, they don't wanna admit the emperor has no clothes. 
 I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth's  claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles. Well if that actually were the case her preamplifier and amplifier must be the biggest pieces of junk in the solar system!   The power supplies must be the worst ones ever! But then the Inference  is that she has much better hearing than I do, hearing that can even detect things that measurements can't. Then in a different thread I learned that Elizabeth is 70 years old. I am 43 with very very good hearing. I've always worn ear protection when I should. But now I'm supposed to believe that her hearing is much better than mine?   come on!I've mentioned in other places that I used to be one of those guys. I've bought expensive power cables, audio file fuses and other bits of snake oil. Then I embarked on a journey of DIY. I built things, I read things, I learned things.   I admit that I was mislead in that earlier period of my life. Now I'm selling or have sold most of the snake oil off.    I don't understand why other folks find it so difficult to admit they were wrong or at least question and look into things a little further.People accuse me of being a troll why cant I leave well enough alone and respect their opinion. It's because it angers me that people are profiting off of this nonsense fraudulent stuff. If someone new reads this thread I want them to pause and question things a little bit. I wish I had read more of the truth when I was younger. 
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cleeds
5,986 posts
 
analogluvr
... it angers me that people are profiting off of this nonsense fraudulent stuff ...
It's interesting how frequently some here bleat about what they allege is fraud in high-end audio, with some even claiming that it is widespread. But such allegations have never been proven. Why is that?
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
analogluvr
Lol couple of great posts there guys, and you hit the nail on the head kosst.
The thing is, unfortunately 99% of these guys have their mind made up and it’ll never change.

>>>>Geez, look who’s talking. I Googled Close Minded and there was a picture of analgluber. Oh, I’m sorry, I meant Devil’s advocate. 🤗
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Kosst says

"Perspective.... I feel like it's been totally lost. Folks who don't even know what kind of resistors their amp has are debating the most nuanced characteristics of a piece of wire or a block of wood. I don't understand that. Which one is really the more meaningful "walk"?"

(that was a good post btw)

My answer is "all of them". When TAS wrote "I witnessed the revolutions first volley" they were talking about my statement "everything affects everything else". It was the beginning of not a new chapter but the next chapter that included every part of The Audio Trilogy.

to the whole gang

If you would, keep in mind I have no part in your debates here. I'm not a part of any camp you guys have drawn the line in the sand over. That's your ballgame and yours alone. My ballgame is "everything affects everything else". That's why you don't see me in those threads that asks what is the most important part of a system. And if I ever was you would read me saying "every part is a part of every other part". Those are the types of questions that get asked in the beginning of our hobby not the more advanced part. The simple truth is, as we walk more we learn there is a lot more walking we can do. We can choose to not go as far as someone else, but we can't "know" until we walk.

Michael Green

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Analogluvr you said

" I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth’s claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles."

Actually Elizabeth is correct. Even back in the late 70’s we would wire studios a certain way with certain outlets to benefit the sound. It was and is a meticulous science (art really). Knowing what to listen for is key and you are saying "you can’t hear the difference" is what I would be more concerned about, If I were to compare Elizabeth’s account vs yours in this matter.

When you guys call "snake oil" you do understand that you are calling almost every serious recording venture from the 50’s through the 90’s a hoax? I guess you can even call recording of the digital age hoax as well, but in the earlier recording years especially there was all kinds of sonic tweaks going on that were pretty creative.

I can't say everyone out there doing tweaks is legit, but what I can say when I read a lot of guys throwing out their "snake oil" card, they're really throwing out their "get out of jail free" card cause they have never done a true exploration of their audio chain past plug & play.

Michael Green

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