How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?


I’m wondering how many A’goners consider a holographic image a must for them to enjoy their systems?  Also, how many achieve this effect on a majority of recordings?
Is good soundstaging enough, or must a three dimensional image be attained in all cases.  Indeed, is it possible to always achieve it?

128x128rvpiano
I presume the OP is referring to what is typically called soundstaging/imaging. (I’ll just use "imaging" for short here).

My take:

It is quite important as part of the experience in listening to my stereo.Otherwise, I wouldn’t bother having "stereo" speakers.

I certainly don’t demand imaging at the expense of other qualities. I’m a tone/timbre guy first. A speaker absolutely has to have, to my ear, an organic and beguiling tone, wood sounds like wood, sparkling guitar strings, shimmering metallic cymbals, reedy-sounding reed instruments. All that stuff. If a system doesn’t have that, all the imaging in the world won’t allow me to enjoy the sound. I also value palpability/dynamics.There are speakers that soundstage in a wispy fashion. The drummer that is up front and physical on one pair of speakers can be placed deep back in the soundstage in another pair, but with a loss of palpabiilty and drive. I’ll take the speaker that gives me the presence and drive of the musician with some sacrifice of imaging/depth over the speaker with the huge soundstage with less palpability.


But of course, I want it all. Once I have a system doing great tone, and good palpability, imaging is a wonderful and important addition to my enjoyment. For one thing, a speaker that images well tends to do so at least partially as a result of being low coloration, so the speaker "disappears" from the sound. The result of lower obvious speaker coloration aides timbral realism, and the result tends to leave the music floating free of the speakers too. I had Harbeth speakers for a while, wondering if they could help me downsize from my bigger Thiel speakers. I love the Harbeth sound, but they just couldn’t compete with my Thiels because the Thiels did tone at least as well (even more realistic IMO), and the Harbeths always had a more congested sense of imaging/depth/soundstaging.Hearing symphonies through the Thiels was more reminiscent of being transported to actually hearing a symphony, eyes closed. Recordings of The Los Angeles Guitar Quartet on the Harbeths showed great timbre and clarity. But on the Thiels, I got not only that, but the wall of my room just "melted away" with the guitars sounding real-sized, and the musicians arrayed before me in a way that made me feel transported to their concert. That added sense of realism is magical.

Mono sources can be good on a good speaker insofar as you will get a good feeling for the music - tone, timbre, dynamics, presence. But part of the appeal to me in high end audio is, to some degree, a sense of believably (if not sheer realism). For a seated listener, Mono is far too limited to ever do what’s needed for realism. Every band and symphony isn’t just lined up behind one another in mono in real life. On a good stereo system with imaging, a Tympony roll just ignites the sense of space - it just blooms - more like the real thing, on a system with great soundstaging and imaging.

And I totally disagree with those who claim we don’t hear soundstaging/imaging in real life. Of course we do; that’s why we have two ears, for acute directionality to sound sources. I tended to sit close at the symphony as I like vividly distinct timbre among the instruments, and it imaged like mad when I closed my eyes. Sure, imaging CAN certainly sound artificial depending on the recording. But it CAN also sound more natural, depending on how it was captured/mixed.

When I play my system for non-audiophiles one of the reasons they are so stunned and comment on how "real" it sounds, is that they are reacting to is the soundstaging imaging. Some don’t even know that it was even possible that music playback had such properties. I played Bernard Herrmann’s Taxi Driver score for a musician pal and he said "Incredible. It was like I was THERE, on the floor with the players around me, as it was being recorded."


But not only is imaging helpful if the goal is to attain some semblance of believability to recreating sound. It’s also to me a compelling artifact in it’s own right.


I listen to lots of electronic/synth music. Obviously, all the soundstaging/imaging is entirely artificial. But I LOVE listening to my favorite electronica on my high end system because, especially with the precise, dense imaging/soundstaging I have in my system, it’s almost like being transported to an alien realm. The different sounds and shapes of synthesizers, from buzz-saw sound tearing the air, to tiny sparkles, to throbbing midrange tones etc, just magically "appear" around the room. It has an amazing cinematic quality to the listening experience.


If high end audio were truly "only about the music" in a very narrow sense, I wouldn’t need high end audio. I can get in to music, and get the musical message on almost any system - my car radio, a blue-tooth speaker, I even truly enjoy listening to music on my iPhone’s speaker!

But High End audio to me offers a different way to experience music - "added value" as it were, and being immersed in the sound, and having the sensation of being transported to various spaces is part of that. It’s why I bother to sit down between a pair of stereo speakers in the first place.

I’ve been buying lots of older LPs and occasionally one shows up in mono. When sit between my speakers and hear that it’s mono, I no longer feel that compelled to sit between my speakers. I will tend to play mono albums and often listen from another room, doing something else.I still enjoy the music, the tone, the dynamics, I still boogie. But I just don’t find it compelling to situate myself in my system’s sweet spot because it just doesn’t pay the dividends that it does with a recording that has enveloping soundstaging, or nice imaging.





As I’ve made clear, I certainly believe sound staging and imaging are an important part of the stereo experience.  In my opening post I was only referring to “trick holography” as artificial to real life experience.

I’m afraid, then, I have no idea what you are talking about rvpiano.


What in the world is "trick holography?"

A speaker doing soundstaging and imaging sounds 3 dimensional and hence "holographic" in that respect. And it’s all a "trick" as it’s just giving the impression sound is occurring here or there, or that some portion of your room has transformed it’s acoustics.


Therefore I can’t understand *what else* there is for you to refer to as some additional "trick holography" that is artificial. (And hence, why this is an issue anyone would care about).

Can you try to explain?  


What would be the difference between an image in a soundstage...and a "trick holography?"


For me,  sound stages are established  when recording with 3 or more mikes and a mixing console, and all we are doing is recreating at home, the engineer's 'view' of the sound in his control room best we can! So, anything through a multi-channel mixer is artificial placement of instruments assembled into a 'sound stage' with lots of MONO mikes...    Holographic ?   Not too sure...

Now, a REAL stereo recording in an acoustic space with only TWO mikes (rare these days because it is expensive for recording engineers to get it right as it takes more time for placement), can re-create (IMHO) an image, and probably more along the lines of the theme of this thread.  

It is the way I record my live classical performances, which is more of an audience perspective.   I don't care for 'hokie'  sitting on the stage with the musicians' effect.  Even the beloved 'Decca Tree' tends to be too close to the stage, usually hung over the Maestro's head!  Violins/violas tend to be close sounding withless natural reverb.  Ever notice how the brass sections seem to have MORE reverb surrounding them?   They are set further away from the mics, and usually when 'spot miked' the level is very low due to their output.  Those powerful instruments tend to excite the venue more so...

Classical composers and conductors have worked hard to get the arrangements of the instruments mixed 'natrually' on stage according to their strengths in volume.   When parts needed to be softer or louder, the composer will call for more or less instruments to play...   

Just my observations and experiences...

My dedicated 23X18' reference listening space audio consists of a rebuilt pair of 1965 Dynaco Mark 3 amps fed by a PAS- 2 preamp, all built by the same factory worker back in the day.   Those feed into a pair of 1967 Klipschorns with no alterations except for new caps in the crossovers..

Thanks for reading and DO feel free to add...




Prof,

If you read all my posts above, you’ll get a better idea of what I’m talking about.  Typically, I’m referring to a solo singer whose voice seems suspended in space between the speakers producing an artificial holographic effect.