2. amps-preamps
  3. 142193-89892

Thinking about upgrading, but wondering about diminishing returns

Hi folks,

I have mostly Conrad Johnson Gear-- LP260M SE mono blocks, with 8 kt120 tubes each.  These are SET amps that put out 270 wpc.  I have the Conrad Johnson  ET5 preamp, with a Telefunken 6922 tube, and a pair of EgglestonWorks Viginti speakers (their new take on the Andra's).  Phono stage is the Pass Labs XP-15.  For source material I have a Rega  RP10 with the Apheta2 cartridge, and the Oppo BDP105 (Modwright upgrades) CD player.  I have Audioquest Colorado interconnects (go easy here :) ) and Audioquest Oaks for speaker cable.  My listening room is 13 x 19, carpeted floor, drywall walls and ceiling (well insulated).  I set up with the equipment on the long wall, with me listening from the 13' side (with speakers in about 2 feet and about 8.5 feet apart).

I listen to a mix of vinyl and cd's; vinyl when I have several hours to listen quietly (and clean the records on the Clear Audio Matrix Pro Record Cleaning Machine).  I listen to CD's when I have less than an hour, and for when I work out.

I am thinking about upgrading a single component, probably my preamplifier, to a Conrad Johnson GAT2 or a Pass Labs XS preamp (solid state). My thought was that this will likely make the most improvement in soundstage, imaging and overall musicality.  A used GAT2 will be at least $14K and the Pass XS used is about $19K.   I am interested in hearing from those who have had experience with upgrades like this.  I am also wondering (as a middle class guy)  how close does this come to the law of diminishing returns?  Finally, is this the component you would upgrade, and if so, if you had a wide range of musical tastes-- mostly classical/full orchestra in vinyl and rock on CD's, which preamp would you select?

Please feel free to take a swipe at these questions, and also feel free to point out if you feel I should be asking different questions that will help increase my knowledge and advance the cause for others.

I am likely to go to an audio show sometime, but please don't suggest that I go and listen to the gear, as that's at least 200 - 400 miles, and I don't feel right about going to a brick and mortar store knowing that I will almost surely buy used.

Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you can provide.


Ag insider logo xs@2xliamowen
lhasaguy's avatar
lhasaguy
336 posts
 
Having read most of this thread, and seeing your substantial system, I would concur regarding room treatments being the best allocation of your resources.

I am married to a PhD Economist (Ivy educated - I do like to brag on her 😍) and our mantra is marginal cost versus marginal gain.

The amount of money needed to upgrade your electronics will never come back to you proportionally with respect to the money spent, great current system!

I have a different system in most regards: but respect your choices of equipment and would suggest that quality input sources and of course more spent on Music of your choice is the path to more big smiles!

Enjoy the ride and Never forget the music.
joshfilm
70 posts
 
Possibly the most civilized, helpful and inspiring forum discussion I've read in the last few months (though admittedly I am a sucker for those click-bait posts). Appreciated.

Whole-heartedly agree with the suggestions you've picked up on so far. I will only add that in terms of imaging and sound-stage width and air, one of the biggest impacts I experienced was with the purchase of high-quality digital cables (Ethernet, USB and Digital Interconnects (Luna, Luna, Echole Omnia Cables respectively)). This was however after making all the non-component upgrades already mentioned. 

I use only a digital front end (TotalDAC) and was surprised by the impact-per-dollar value of these last-to-be-considered cables. If ever you get serious about your digital front end, you might look into this.

Also, can't speak highly enough about the pleasures of a great streaming set-up for musical exploration and discovery... its perhaps the most enjoyable feature of my system: being able to trial every piece of music that piques my attention and feel like I am hearing the full impact of the artist's intentions from the very first listen. So much surprise and excitement not knowing what music (and musical life) is around the next corner. Highly recommend as a way of extending the pleasure from your already great system from the sounds of it.

Enjoy and good luck.
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
12,911 posts
 
@ihas.   ask her about utility function derivation....but hey my teachers are all Chicago school..ha


bainbmil's avatar
bainbmil
5 posts
 
At this level, diminishing returns are sometimes just the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes you get negative returns. My system consists of (analogue source) Well Tempered Versalex / LTD2 tonearm / DPS power supply, Dynavector 20X2L cartridge, Pass Labs Aleph Ono phono preamp; (digital source) Naim CDS3, Teddy Pardo XPS power supply; (amplification) Naim NAC-112 preamp, Naim NAP-150 power amp; (speakers) ProAc Studio 140 Mk2. Cabling is either Naim or Chord. What I will say about this system is two things: First, the CDS3 is very well-regarded, and was the top of the line before the CD 555. However, my analogue front-end blows the CDS3 out of the water, despite having about half the price-tag. I’m certain that the reason for that is the magical Pass phono pre.  Stick with yours, it's going to be very tough to beat. Second, I’ve listened to systems that cost in the region of $240k, and don’t sound as good as mine at maybe 1/4 the price. Some of the really high-priced boxes produce a lot of hi-fi wiz-bang effects, but they don’t produce good music. Really the only thing that makes sense is to get a component into your system and see if it’s a synergistic match that really improves the music. Something may be higher-up the food chain, but may make your music sound too analytical to enjoy. And who knows, you might find that you get more out of room treatments than component upgrades. It’s all just stuff you have to try out.
brianlucey's avatar
brianlucey
153 posts
 
"Upgrade" ... is a subjective thing ... and EVERYTHING has diminishing returns.

So you are correct to be concerned about them!
You should never buy ANYTHING unless you are :
1. Unhappy with your system, for a good long while.
2. Able to pin down what you want
3. Able to pin down what piece is the weak link and causing the issue.
Room treatments are a great idea. As a mastering engineer the room is huge ... and speaker placement is key. 1/4" this way or that can achieve huge gains. Then it’s the gear, which is also huge.  See 1,2,3.

Enjoy !
More to discover