Thiel Owners

I share the surprise of learning of Chinese sourced components. I am gradually making sense of the history and can speak more readily after the Thiel bankruptcy closes.

I will say that Jim's decisions were careful and considered. I know that FST, the Chinese manufacturing source, was chosen for Thiel's Home Theater product components in the mid 90s and that Jim worked with them in his last years on the 3.7 drivers, which could not have been developed any other way.

So, even though I and many others judge Chinese components less worthy, the facts may not support that opinion. However, my own research and observations lead me to return to Thiel's traditional use of best-of-form sources which are generally European, Japanese and/or American. So much subtle sophistication goes into creating the very best of anything, that I don't trust even an ISO 9001 spec unless I verify the results for myself.

I have learned that the CYC caps in the 3.7 use a Chinese film claimed to be equivalent to the best. Solen and most other very sophisticated brands use it also. I believe from trustworthy input that that film underperforms the best-in-world Japanese and Danish film, from which Thiel's prior custom caps were wound. I am returning to known best of form suppliers even if the Chinese suppliers might be as good. I would have to prove it for myself.

In the case of wire, Beetlemania's 2.4 coils were from the Chinese source with same claims as above. I can't compare wire alloy or manufacture methods and specs, but I can say B's 2.4 coils were visibly inferior in wind quality. Thiel's known ERSE and Jantzen coils are my choice. And so forth and so on. We only know what we know. We don't know what rigor or trade-offs were applied to late Thiel products, especially after Jim's death, but even before that. I saw a photo of Jim showing off a CS3.7 crossover with all CYC caps.

For my part, I plan to create iterations that best serve the musical capabilities of the design intent.

While a heavier gauge in a single conductor may allow a higher capacity, I am curious how signal response across the contemplated frequency range through such increased conductor cross section would be impacted.  Perhaps a multiple optimum conductor scheme would be a more desirable arrangement under such circumstances, or over longer distances where such frequency distortions are compounded.

I think the trick is to design a cable that does not really favor any particular frequency.  It is easy said than done though.  You don't want to for example emphasize high frequency but not at low frequency - you then end up with a cable that sound bright and edgy.  And you don't want a cable that has resonance issue at some specific frequencies either(I suspect some low end Monster cables suffer from this condition).  

As far as having gauge size of 18AWG as optimal, that's an interesting observation.  18AWG itself may be too small to drive a speaker as it may not be able to carry a lot of current without experiencing a lot of phase shift.  One way is to bunch together a lot of 18AWG wire then run them on a dielectric substrate so you can have the best of both world - low distortion of 18AWG but able to carry a lot of current.  A lot of cables use this strategy especially at the high end spectrum.  I looked at StraightWire website and it seems like the as the cable cost gets higher, the construction becomes more complicated in term of number of wire strands and dielectric arrangement.

It's interesting that high end cables is only a recent phenomenon.  I was not around back then but in the 70's or 80's it was not an area where people were paying that much attention.  Personally cables in my system have made the most prominent differences given their modest cost compared overall to my system.  

Anyway, cables is an interest area of mine but as I said I don't mean to discuss too much on cables as this is mainly a Thiel thread.

@jafant
Yes, I have 163/164. What a memory!

Given that the SE was released before Jim T passed in 2009 and my pair was built in 2012 (as reported by the seller and confirmed per label on a woofer), I suspect SEs were built as orders trickled in. But it’s hard to imagine that your even newer pair does not also have FST sourced boards. Obviously, you are plenty happy with your sound, so all is good.

In my case, I was very happy with the OEM boards but heard a slight “glassy” quality in the midrange. Encouraged by Tom Thiel’s participation here, I upgraded the resistors which cleared that issue and provided other sonic benefits. And now I have made global changes and am discovering what the Thiel CS2.4s are capable of. Literally put a smile on my face.

Andy - my first-choice idea for multiple runs is to twist the bunch (2 or 3) 18 ga varnished coil wires having essentially no dialectric. That wire-twine is insulated with a cotton sleeve (very low dielectric absorption) if physically necessary - and/or physically kept from contacting its opposite polarity mate or other conductor. Driver runs will require spacers so that the ± twine-pair can be twisted to reduce capacitance. I am looking at teflon donuts for that purpose.

Much of the insulation requirement for speaker cables and interconnects is due to handling, being stepped on and so forth. Inside a speaker cabinet is a safer, more predictable environment.

Regarding the FST coils, I sent pics to Tom Thiel and he noted the apparent loose winding. When my new ERSE and Jantzen coils arrived, I was stunned at the difference in tightness of the windings. Given my global changes, I cannot say to what degree replacing the coils has improved SQ.

I was surprised at the CYC caps on my OEM boards and an Internet search revealed little about their quality or construction. But I was especially disappointed to discover that they are MKT (polyester) instead of MKP (polypropylene). As I suggested in my previous post, there is nothing “wrong” with their sound, but other caps have better SQ. Earlier 2.4s apparently have MKP caps.

I was unable to determine the manufacturer for the resistors but they superficially resemble those on Lexington boards I’ve seen on the ‘net. Nevertheless, replacing those with Mills MRA-12s was money well spent.