Why not horns?

There is this device called a,

"SUB-WOOFER"

It is an amazing addition, and improves the sound in more

ways than you would expect.

Properly implemented, not ONLY is the "3d effect" THERE!


do what they where made to do.

The Bass, is NO LONGER an issue.

The sheer speed, and visceral effects of the Velodynes,

in addition to the smoothness in the highs and midrange>
If you look at my system, you will see that I have a Velodyne DD12 so I fully understand what a sub can do. The speakers I have are run full range with the sub crossed in to blend. They produce 3D imaging with or without the sub. Your comment makes absolutley no sense and is about as condescending as it gets. You state that noone is giving examples of why they don't use horns, then when someone does you imply that they have no idea what they are doing. The CS2's are designed to be flat to 20 hz and are meant to be used without a sub. That is from the designer. I suppose that you know better than him how his speakers should be set up. As far as a speaker that costs 36k requiring a sub to sound right, that is ridiculous as it gets. It better be able to do everything right for that kind of money. And while I said that the mids and highs were very nice, I did not say that they were great or revlatory. That is what I would expect at that price.

It seems that no matter the design, there is at least one person who feels that everyone else can't hear if they don't use the design they favor. It could be stats, planars, single driver, time and phase coherent with 1st order crossover, etc., or in this case, horns. Different people hear things differently. There is no such thing as a perfect speaker. Each person chooses what it is they are willing to live with that is not perfect. I have chosen to not use horns, but continue to be open to being convinced they are right for me. So far, that hasn't happened. One thing for sure, telling me I can't hear is not going to convince me of the superiority of horns.

As Learsfool states, I found the sweetspot to be very wide with the CS2's. This was also my experience with the other directivity controlled speakers that I have owned, the Legacy Audio Whisper. The Whisper was the reason I was so interested in the open baffle bass of the CS2's. In addition, both speakers were easy to place as Learsfool also mentions due to their controlled directivity and open panel bass. I have heard "head in a vice" speakers before and would never by one of them either. As I mentioned above, all of these are strictly my opinions and experiences. It is up to each person to choose what pleases them.

Herman... Sounding like trumpets is a quite precise description of what I find undesirable about horns. I think everyone will understand what I am saying, although they might disagree. As is often said on Audiogon, we couldn't care less about specs...it's how it sounds.

Csm,

If you were trying to address my issue re: "hybrid horns" (i.e. almost any extended range horn design), I think that you may have missed my narrow point. Specifically, I was suggesting that horn loaded drivers increase their output more rapidly than non-horn loaded drivers (subwoofers included). That is, take a GREAT subwoofer (I use Rythmik) and adjust it so that the tonal balance is just right at your typical listening level. Then crank the volume. IME, ALL speakers change character at some point, but horn/hybrids do so more quickly and more audibly.

My explanation - that compression in the non-loaded driver (the subwoofer in this example) - audibly exceeds that in the horn loaded driver. That is, by the way, just a guess - but a guess that explains what I hear. I only hypothesized this after a couple of years living with horn/hybrids and only further tested it with a brief audition, so I can't swear that it's the issue at hand. However, I don know this:

In the systems to which I was referring, you'd need to reset the level of the subs as you increased/decreased volume level in order to maintain consistent tonal balance.
No shot at the subs (and I have used Velodynes, too), just observing the mismatch in dynamic behavior between horn and non-horn loaded drivers - with the acknowledgement that the sample size is too small to produce statistical significance.

Csmgolf has provided a personal account of an honest attempt to make horn speakers work for him. It could be argued that his experience is not indicative of the best that horns can offer but that is not the purpose of this thread. I want people to overcome ignorance of what horns can do and he has certainly made to desired effort.
He says that he is keeping an open mind. What else can you ask of him?

My reach here is toward those who have closed their minds. I don't expect everyone to like what I like but since getting involved in horns myself I have come to learn that there are few areas of sound reproduction that embody misinformation and misunderstanding to the degree that horn loudspeakers do. Even the most prominent horn designers are sharply divided as the best approach. The pre-eminent horn authority at this point in time is probably Tom Danley but I'm sure you will hear arguments about that statement as well.

Perhaps, if enough of us get interested, the forces that guide research will guide the horn. As a technology, simple as it seems,we appear to be dealing with an option that has remained an infant for 50 years.

For those who tak about sweet spots, do some reading about the JBL Everest. Maybe some investigation of B&O experiments with sound directivity and room correction will provide inspiration or spark some imagining. Geddes has a Circle on Audio Circle that is heavily trafficked. Romy has a following. Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill is utterly retro and cutting edge in the same stroke. His designs challenge the best of everything yet stick with horns and single tubes. Bruce Edgar may be the guy who got us all started. Klipsch holds a dedicated following. Jadis created one of the most sought after speakers of all time, all horn. Usher makes a horn speaker that looks very interesting. Bert Doppenberg has been stirring souls and stirring the pot for a couple of decades. Classic Audio Design makes the speaker that Atma-Sphere uses and adores. Field coil drivers are in use there and in the minds of many an entrepreneur. For those who don't know, a field coil uses an electromagnet the way your speakers use permanent magnets.
Have I forgotten anyone? Probably. I'm no expert and I imagine some of what I just wrote contains minor factual errors. I'm too lazy to bolster my recollections with back research for the purpose of this thread. I'd just like to get more people talking and more designers working on horns. I'm sure that tapped horns hold huge potential and I bet that designers can make horns more living room friendly if sufficiently motivated. I understand that the laws of physics are more than just suggestions but I also know that the audiophile community is infinitely resourceful. Our problems lie in the area of media misdirection. The audio press might better be called the audio suppress.

Horns have unexploited potential. Lets get busy harvesting their potential. Most other options seem to have reached their limits long ago.

Dartford, I accept your assessment of what you heard. I am curious what horns you have heard. I realize that might be an extensive list and not worth the bother of recalling but given our diametrically opposed experiences it might help understand where you are coming from.

Macrojack, I would add Jeffrey Jackson and Dave Slagle to your list of cutting edge horn designers. Jeffrey is distributing a line of wood horns and they are collaborating on field coil designs. Check out the Hi Fi Heroin blog at this link to get an idea of how consumed these guys are with it.

http://www.jeffreywjackson.com/

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