Speaker positioning games. Where can I go from here?


https://i.imgur.com/z7BZYqy.jpg

Last Thursday night I was messing with my speaker positioning. I’m nwver happy with the bass but I am barely into building my endgame system so I think some of that will worked out.

anyway, I moved my speakers (Focal 907v on stands) from 13” (back of cab to front wall) out to 22”. Bass is lessened but it’s most noticeable in bass attack. But there’s a fullness I didn’t expect.

I then toed them in which really made the vocals pop into that center position and all around imaging is much improved. The left speaker is 40” from a wall of windows and the right has nothing next to it for 13’. For the toe in I left the outside corner of the cabinet at 22” from the wall but rotated so the inside rear corner is now 21.5” from front wall. I think this improved imaging by lessening reflection on the left side.

I sit on a couch with a table between it and the back wall. My ear is ~18” from the back wall (drywall). The drivers are 91” apart and 98” to my ear. I think lessening early reflections and some combing has made things sound better.

My system build is glacially slow. So far I have the power amp I want and that’s it. All other pieces will be swapped out and sold as I replace them. My plan for this calendar year is to replace the Project DC with 2M Blue with a SL1200GR with possibly a Nag MP200. Next year, maybe around March replace the current line stage (Schiit Sys-temporary) with an Odyssey Candela (tubed line stage) and Buchardt S400 speakers in the summer. My feeling is that these first 2 pieces alone will really bolster my bass I response.

But in the meantime. What other positioning tweaks can I try? My room is basically a horizontal rectangle with the living room/listening spot on the left half with the rig on the long wall.

thanks.

gochurchgo
Okay you want positioning tweaks? We got positioning tweaks!

Start by tweaking the speakers to precisely the same distance and angle. Precisely means within 1/16". This is easiest with a range-finding laser-level. Aim the inside of each speaker to a point a few inches to the outside of each ear. Otherwise, old-school line and tape and framing square works fine too. The way you measured the sides to the wall is fine, just do that across to the other speaker to make sure both are aimed the same and perfectly symmetrical.

While you're at it make sure they are perfectly square/vertical. Its easy especially with carpet and spikes to have them leaning a bit. So even if you get the distance right the dispersion will be off.

Now once you've established this have a listen. Even a small tweak should have improved imaging. Now try tweaking toe-in just a bit. Pointed right at each ear imaging will be incredible. Toe'd out a little won't lose much solidity but will tend to improve a sense of space. Toe out too much and the sound will be wide but diffuse. Tweak small amounts and listen.

Now you have the challenge of a wall on one side, open space on the other. There's this thing with humans, sounds that arrive within about 6 milliseconds tend to be perceived the same. Sound travels roughly 1 ft per millisecond. So your goal is to have the first reflection sound path at least 6 feet longer than the direct path measured to the speaker. You can measure to be sure but at 40" I think your left speaker is a little too close. Experiment a little. You may find it works better to shift both speakers just a few degrees to the right. Either sideways, or rotating to the right (as seen from the sweet spot). Experiment! Nothing, but nothing, beats tweaking speaker placement in terms of cost/benefit.

From there you might want to try moving them a little closer. Maintaining the same angles this will bring them further from the front wall and the left one further from the problematic window. Should improve imaging even more.

Won't take much of this to develop a pretty good sense of what works for imaging. With a feel for that you can then work on getting the best tradeoff between imaging and frequency response. Sitting so close to the back wall is an even bigger factor than speaker placement. You may notice moving even a few inches closer or further from the wall changes bass response a lot.

There's no right answer, its all trade-offs, but you got to put in the work to get a feel for what those trade-offs are. Its never perfect but you may be surprised just how much better it can be with a little work. 


@millercarbon   Thanks. Amazing!
 I’m going to try every one of those ideas. Good call on leveling which I didnt do.

You mentioned moving the speakers closer to, if I understand correctly, the sitting position which seems like it would subtract bass but then maybe not if that puts the sitting position closer/into the pressurized area between by the speakers. Given the length of my speaker cables, I can go another 6-8” more so I will try that.

As for toeing in, I believe the documentation with the Focals mentioned aiming the drivers right at the ears or just in front of the listeners head. I recall not digging that but I will definitely try that again.

it seems generally, that speakers being further apart expands the soundtage, but is there a limit to that? 
I suspect most audiophiles believe that generally the soundstage will be better when the speakers are wider apart and perhaps toed in to some degree. I’d like to disabuse them of that old wives tale. You can never find the absolute best locations by using the move a little, listen a little method. That’s like trying to solve N simultaneous equations in N+x unknowns. Oh, you might find locations you like, that are better than where you started. But they won’t be the best locations. Furthermore, as you add room treatments or tweaks, the ideal speaker locations change.
If the speakers are too far apart you will begin to hear a "hole" in the middle of the stage and most of the sound will now be directional from each separate speaker. The key is to go far enough apart to retain the center fill while maximizing the width of stage. Just right and there should be a point where the speakers sonically disappear. Get the distance to your ears equally positioned and the image will be stable and in focus.
@geoffkait  I have always read and believed it but never challenged it.  Going to now haha.

@stevecham  that makes total sense. I will make sure to listen for that.