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Rythmik Vs REL Subwoofers - What to Buy?

I have an L Shaped living/dinning room.  The living room measures 13.5'x18.5' and the dining room measures 10.5'x13.5".  I have a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F towers along the 13.5' wall hooked up to an ARCAM AVR550.  They are currently placed 8' apart with a 72" stereo cabinet between them leaving 45' on both sides of the cabinet.  This wall shares the outside 13.5' wall in the dinning room.  There are two 3' walls that narrow the opening to the dining room.

I am trying to decide what subwoofers to add to my system.  Three dealers suggested I add a pair of subwoofers rather than adding just one based on my room dimensions and room layout.  I am trying to decide between adding a pair of Rythmik F12 Signature subwoofers or a pair of REL T/9i's or a pair of REL S3's and locate them next to the towers.  However, because of limited space I may not be able to consider the S3 subwoofers, as they will crowd my towers more and it will most likely require moving my towers closer together from 8' apart to 7' apart.  The dealers I have talked to suggested I locate the subwoofers in the corners.    

I have an upright piano along the 18' wall to the right and I would prefier to use just one subwoofer located to the left of the piano located approximately 5' to 6' in front of the right front speaker.  This would prevent cluttering the wall where my towers are located and it would make our room look better.  If I locate just one subwoofer next to the piano, the speaker would point directly into the opening of the dining room.

Could you please advise as to whether to go with a Rythmik or a REL subwoofer?  I like the idea of the Rythmik Direct Servo technology.  The amplifier in the subwoofer has the ability to boost lower bass frequencies at lower listening volumes to prevent fall off.  However, would they sound too boomy?  I talked to a highly regarded speaker manufacturer and he told me if I went with the T/9i's, they rated them to go down to 28 Hz at -6 db.  He told me based on this, they would actually be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  He went on to say this is woofer rather than subwoofer territory.  I have listened to both the REL T/9i and the REL S3 and I was not able to hear a significant difference in bass extension when they were played with a pair Bowers & Wilkins 702's.  However, I liked the way they blended in with the main speakers.  They were seamless and I swore all of the sound was coming out of the towers.  The problem is there are many recordings that contain bass frequencies of 24 Hz and possibly lower and if I go with the REL's I would not be able to hear anything lower than 35 Hz.  The Rythmik Signature F12's play down to 14 Hz.  The speaker manufacture I talked to makes custom Rythmik subwoofers and he told me the Rythmik subs are the most musical subwoofers he has ever heard.  Rythmik sells only direct and it would be helpful to be able to hear one before making my decision.

I listen to 70% music and 30% HT and my first priority is music.

If you were in my shoes, what would you recommend I do?
128x128larry5729
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,008 posts
 
b_limo,

Thank you for your response.  I just want to keep from making another mistake.  After purchasing my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers a friend of mine sent me an article that discussed why a 3 way is better than a 2 1/2 way speaker.  So, from that day forward, I felt I purchased the wrong speakers.  My friend already knew when I was looking for speakers he was going to purchase a pair of Salk Song3 Encore speakers at the RMAF last October and I think he wanted to make himself, as usual, one up me.  Needless to say I no longer want to be around a person who needs to feel I am not on his level.  

It was interesting for you to say you like SVS and REL the most.  I always felt SVS was more for home theater.  The one thing I like about REL is the way they hook up.  It seems like their subs are designed to act more like woofers than act like subwoofers when playing music.  Maybe this is what I should be looking for.  What I don't want is to have a bassy/boomy sound system where the bass masks everything else and it drives me out of the room.  The Rythmik Direct Servo technology makes sense.  When I talked to the owner of Rythmik, he certainly did not bad mouth REL.  He just used his incredible electrical engineering background to explain why he felt his technology worked better.  However, the Rythmik looks too complicated for a beginner to hook up.  They have all kinds of ports and knobs to adjust them, but their sales person basically told me to just use the LFE hook up and use the ARCAM DIRAC system to calibrate everything.  Since LFE is for special effects, wouldn't the subwoofers sound like they are turning themselves on and off when they detect lower bass frequencies than what my towers can produce and sound jerky when playing music?  If this is the case, why do they bother to provide all of these different connections and adjustment knobs if they suggest the LFE connections on their subwoofer and my ARCAM?  Based on some of the conversations I have had with Rythmik, they must be designed to be used by experts and by audiophiles with tons of experience.  Also, because Rythmik sells direct, there are no local dealers who can come to my house and set things up.  Perhaps, this is huge reason why dealers exist.

I hope you can now see where I am coming from and why I am concerned about making yet another mistake.
bstatmeister
537 posts
 
I have an idea, why not take advantage of the direct seller's 60-90 day trial period and order 2 or 3 subs and then have a thunderdome shoot-out. Winner take all and return the losers. Shipping costs would likely need to be paid, but would be a small price to pay for peace of mind knowing you got the right sub for your room.
helomech
1,680 posts
 
I just want to keep from making another mistake. After purchasing my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers a friend of mine sent me an article that discussed why a 3 way is better than a 2 1/2 way speaker. So, from that day forward, I felt I purchased the wrong speakers. My friend already knew when I was looking for speakers he was going to purchase a pair of Salk Song3 Encore speakers at the RMAF last October and I think he wanted to make himself, as usual, one up me. Needless to say I no longer want to be around a person who needs to feel I am not on his level.

If your friend is often trying to one up you, he’s probably the one enjoying his system less. It’s a sad truth that some in this "hobby" buy gear for nothing more than bragging rights.

Anyhow, there is no such thing as a perfect speaker, and whether one is better than another depends on good implementation and listener preference. Personally, I’ve heard very few 3-ways I could live with. Most often, they lack coherence and suffer from phase anamolies - doesn’t take a trained ear to notice sound is emanating from 3 separate diaphragms. Of course, that doesn’t apply to all 3-ways but it does seem a problem with the vast majority. The crossover peaks/suckouts, and phase issues(not universal) that often come with 3+ drivers can actually mask detail and nuance. I have multiple 2-ways that can school many a 3-way. In fact, the least refined and most distorted speakers out of my six current pairs happens to be my only 3-ways (Klipsch Heresy 3s). IME, a $5K 2-way will nearly always outperform a $2K 3-way. Quality is better than quantity.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,008 posts
 
Thanks helomech843.

Needless to say this guy is no longer my friend.  When he sent me that article about 3 way Vs 2 1/2 way speakers, I realized he one upped me on everything he owned.  Real friends don't do this nor do people who have a good self image.  I was pretty angry after he sent this article to me because I thought he knew I was buying a pair of 2 1/2 way Paradigm Prestige 85F towers and never said a word.  If he felt this way about 3 way being better, he should have said so before my purchase.  I listened to B & W;s, Martin Logan Motion 60's, Focal Arias, Golden Ear, Diffinitive Technology and the Monitor Audio Silver 8 and Silver 10 speakers before making my purchase.  When I went to a dealer to listen to the Paradigm speakers, they also carried Monitor Audio.  I listened to a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's and immediately told the dealer I did not remember them sounding so harsh.  When I compared them to the Paradigm Prestige 85F's, I decided on the Paradigm.  However, after weeks of listening to them in my home I have found at times the mid voicing to sound a bit harsh and I wish the tweeters were a little brighter.  The REL dealer visited my home and told me my speakers would sound a lot better after he master set them and he also mentioned if I added a pair of REL T/9i's they would clean up the vocals.  Not sure why the REL's would improve the vocals though.  Another speaker manufacturer, who I highly regard, told me the REL T/9i's are rated at 28 Hz at -6 db.  He told me, based on their specs, they would be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  In the meantime, he pointed out there are many recordings that play down to 24 Hz.  So, if I went with the REL's, I would only be able to hear bass frequencies of 35 Hz and lose the lower frequencies on the recordings.  He also told me the Rythmik subs were the most musical subwoofers he has heard to date.  He also told me they do not pound away the bass and masque the main towers.
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