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Rythmik Vs REL Subwoofers - What to Buy?

I have an L Shaped living/dinning room.  The living room measures 13.5'x18.5' and the dining room measures 10.5'x13.5".  I have a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F towers along the 13.5' wall hooked up to an ARCAM AVR550.  They are currently placed 8' apart with a 72" stereo cabinet between them leaving 45' on both sides of the cabinet.  This wall shares the outside 13.5' wall in the dinning room.  There are two 3' walls that narrow the opening to the dining room.

I am trying to decide what subwoofers to add to my system.  Three dealers suggested I add a pair of subwoofers rather than adding just one based on my room dimensions and room layout.  I am trying to decide between adding a pair of Rythmik F12 Signature subwoofers or a pair of REL T/9i's or a pair of REL S3's and locate them next to the towers.  However, because of limited space I may not be able to consider the S3 subwoofers, as they will crowd my towers more and it will most likely require moving my towers closer together from 8' apart to 7' apart.  The dealers I have talked to suggested I locate the subwoofers in the corners.    

I have an upright piano along the 18' wall to the right and I would prefier to use just one subwoofer located to the left of the piano located approximately 5' to 6' in front of the right front speaker.  This would prevent cluttering the wall where my towers are located and it would make our room look better.  If I locate just one subwoofer next to the piano, the speaker would point directly into the opening of the dining room.

Could you please advise as to whether to go with a Rythmik or a REL subwoofer?  I like the idea of the Rythmik Direct Servo technology.  The amplifier in the subwoofer has the ability to boost lower bass frequencies at lower listening volumes to prevent fall off.  However, would they sound too boomy?  I talked to a highly regarded speaker manufacturer and he told me if I went with the T/9i's, they rated them to go down to 28 Hz at -6 db.  He told me based on this, they would actually be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  He went on to say this is woofer rather than subwoofer territory.  I have listened to both the REL T/9i and the REL S3 and I was not able to hear a significant difference in bass extension when they were played with a pair Bowers & Wilkins 702's.  However, I liked the way they blended in with the main speakers.  They were seamless and I swore all of the sound was coming out of the towers.  The problem is there are many recordings that contain bass frequencies of 24 Hz and possibly lower and if I go with the REL's I would not be able to hear anything lower than 35 Hz.  The Rythmik Signature F12's play down to 14 Hz.  The speaker manufacture I talked to makes custom Rythmik subwoofers and he told me the Rythmik subs are the most musical subwoofers he has ever heard.  Rythmik sells only direct and it would be helpful to be able to hear one before making my decision.

I listen to 70% music and 30% HT and my first priority is music.

If you were in my shoes, what would you recommend I do?
128x128larry5729
helomech
1,519 posts
 
Needless to say this guy is no longer my friend. When he sent me that article about 3 way Vs 2 1/2 way speakers, I realized he one upped me on everything he owned. Real friends don't do this nor do people who have a good self image. I was pretty angry after he sent this article to me because I thought he knew I was buying a pair of 2 1/2 way Paradigm Prestige 85F towers and never said a word. If he felt this way about 3 way being better, he should have said so before my purchase. I listened to B & W;s, Martin Logan Motion 60's, Focal Arias, Golden Ear, Diffinitive Technology and the Monitor Audio Silver 8 and Silver 10 speakers before making my purchase. When I went to a dealer to listen to the Paradigm speakers, they also carried Monitor Audio. I listened to a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's and immediately told the dealer I did not remember them sounding so harsh. When I compared them to the Paradigm Prestige 85F's, I decided on the Paradigm. However, after weeks of listening to them in my home I have found at times the mid voicing to sound a bit harsh and I wish the tweeters were a little brighter. The REL dealer visited my home and told me my speakers would sound a lot better after he master set them and he also mentioned if I added a pair of REL T/9i's they would clean up the vocals. Not sure why the REL's would improve the vocals though. Another speaker manufacturer, who I highly regard, told me the REL T/9i's are rated at 28 Hz at -6 db. He told me, based on their specs, they would be lucky to play down to 35 Hz. In the meantime, he pointed out there are many recordings that play down to 24 Hz. So, if I went with the REL's, I would only be able to hear bass frequencies of 35 Hz and lose the lower frequencies on the recordings. He also told me the Rythmik subs were the most musical subwoofers he has heard to date. He also told me they do not pound away the bass and masque the main towers.
I also have auditioned many of those speakers. I owned the Silver 8s for about a year. You're correct, they are harsh - the main reason I got rid of them. My current reference speakers are 2-ways and quite superior to the 3-way Silver 8s - it's laughable really.

The REL dealer is correct. Yes, the Master Set (Sumiko Master Set to be exact) can maximize speaker placement. He's also correct in that subs can clear up the midrange. Even without the use of a subwoofer's built-in high-pass crossover (removes low octave duties from the midbass drivers - less cone excursion competing with midband freqs), they somehow improve the upper freqs, especially when running multiple subs. It's a crazy phenomenon but it's true IME.


bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,459 posts
 

@larry5729: All this talk about 2-1/2 way vs 3 way, the sub specs of 35/28/24/14 Hz, what other people tell you (including your "friend", Jim Salk, Brian Ding of Rythmik), is fine, up to a point. But your words remind me of myself when I was new to the hi-fi game, before I had paid my "audiophile dues".

Whether a loudspeaker is a 2-1/2 way or a 3 way is not what matters; what matters is the sound it makes. You keep repeating those sub figures as if they tell one all about the capabilities of the subs, in the same way I looked at the harmonic distortion figures of amplifiers when I was 18, and just getting started.

I'm afraid it's not that simple or easy. You're going to have to do it the hard way, just like the rest of us did. Take a chance, and learned from your mistakes. Not everyone ends up with the same system, we each find the sound we hear in our heads. There is no shortcut. No one can do this for you, you've got to do it yourself. I hope this doesn't sound preachy; I feel your anxiety!

bstatmeister
534 posts
 
@bdp24 - exactly. For instance, just yesterday I auditioned a speaker that I thought I was going to absolutely love (the Klipsch RP600M), in fact due to glowing reviews from the likes of folks like Steve Guttenburg, I already had in my mind that I was going to buy them. Luckily I found a local store who had them and went to demo them on my lunch break. They sounded better than any Klipsch I had ever heard before, but still waaaaay too harsh for my taste, so I could never be happy with them - just too much HF chiseling away at my ear drums. I like to listen at high volume, so I knew this would definitely not work. Good thing I tried them out first! Now I know.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
bdp24, I really appreciated your input.  My problem is I have a wife who already resents the money I have spent thus far with another $5,500 to go.  I just don't want to make another mistake because I know my wife would kill me if I change some of my gear out.  I wanted to buy a system that could play both 2 channel Hi-Fi and HT without having to buy a 2 channel amplifier and an AV receiver to require changing the speaker connections back and forth.  Wish I had known about the Anthem separates and their really nice small dimension mono blocks.  They are really slick and can be stacked with the 5 channel amplifier.  I didn't know you could purchase a HT theater separately that could hook up to an audiophile amplifier for better sound quality.  However, this would have cost me about $10,000 and my wife would have had a bird.  Just wish I could spend the money on the incredible technology out there and be supported by a spouse.  It seems like this hobby is predominately supported by men.  Not sure why men find sound so fascinating.  Kind of like buy a Ford Cobra Shelby.  However, this hobby is a lot less expensive than that hobby.

bstatatmeister, I have never liked Klipsh.  I think their horns are way too harsh.  You need to listen to the SALK Song3 Encore's preiced at $6,000.  Never heard anything better priced at $25,000.
bstatmeister
534 posts
 
The store that I went to also had Golden ear Triton reference towers and McIntosh gear. I thought it sounded nice, but wasn't blown away. I still much prefer the Vandersteen Treo CT and the Maggies from my other local dealer. Haven't heard the Salk's but they are on my list of speakers to check out before I purchase my next pair, as well as the Tekton DIs.
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