What percentage of audiophiles use a sub ?

Mapman's #2 appropriately addresses Lear's comment. The biggest impact of my subs - BY FAR - is the peak/dip between 70hz and 120hz. I use 2 DRC subs and bassbusters and the measured response of my sytem in this range went from +/-14db to +/- app 1.5 db. I assure you that this is audible.

I'm in a discussion in another sub-centric thread and have been specifically addressing a consistent, room-generated dip/peak around 80hz(dip) that I've been battling for years with my room. Currently the two integrated subs in my speakers do not address it, nor has any speaker/sub combination (though I have not tried more than two subs at a time, which I think Duke is suggesting there). I was going to follow up some recent input there with this question: with such room-specific suckouts, will altering the position of the system in the room significantly alter where and whether that suckout occurs, or are they entirely independent of positioning? It seems to be more common than I was aware, and frequently in the low end of the music.

My experience goes along with Marty's comment that, though you may not hear it specifically (BOOMBOOMBOOM), having the fuller range does augment instruments and sound that live in the lower spectrum - music, especially the stuff in the lower octaves, certainly sounds different with the subs on vs having the subs off, even though it does not fall into the depths that define the limits of the sub/system.

More often than not (though, fortunately, not always), these days, I find live performances less than appealing in comparison to the intimacy that my system offers. Using live music as a sort of generic bar to achieve, therefore, makes no sense to me. Expecting to replicate a concert hall in your listening room is the stuff of huge, very expensive, speakers set up in larger rooms, moving a whole lot of air, and even then the experience falls short of the real thing in terms of shear scale (though the effect can definitely be breathtaking). Replicating "live" is the proverbial carrot on a stick attached to your head just out of reach. Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end. Regarding the frequency range we can actually hear - there is also visceral impact that is not heard, especially in the low end. Those cues do go a long way in bringing the music home, as it were. Experiencing 28hz on headphones is not at all the same as experiencing the same in a room where the sounds wash over your body.

Jax,

I had a similar situation. First I added 2 bassbusters. This had the effect of lowering the output in the 1/2 octave above your suckout. IME, part of the suckout is real and part is actually a function of the hump that often occurs just above this frequncy and extends up to 120hz or 150hz.

With 2 subs (crossed in the mid 70hz range), you can usually find a pretty smooth level match between the subs and the now "bassbusted" response at the bottom octave of the main speakers' (crossed and rolled off) range. DRC will allow you to address the smaller issues that occur (at least in my room) around 50hz and, if you wish, tailor response down in the deepest regions.

I use:

NHT x-2 to roll off bass in my mains
Velodyne SMS-1 to provide DRC via parametric EQ and to optimize integration with mains via the VERY flexible High Cut Filter integrated into the unit.
2 12" Rythmik subwoofers
2 bassbuster knockoffs from

The whole sub-woofin' enchilada ran just under $3000 (a fair bit more than the Ohm 100s I usually employ as my main speakers), but was - IMHO - a great investment. All products are available via money-back in-home trial period, so you might want to think about checking it out.

Good Luck

Marty

Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end.

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which is about 65 Hz. That doesn't require a sub unless your recording has noises that include something other than from the bow on the strings.

The problem with many speakers is their response is ragged in this region due to room acoustics and speaker placement issues. Those issues can be addressed, but the answer isn't automatically a sub.

Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end.

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which is about 65 Hz. That doesn't require a sub unless your recording has noises that include something other than from the bow on the strings.

The problem with many speakers is their response is ragged in this region due to room acoustics and speaker placement issues. Those issues can be addressed, but the answer isn't automatically a sub.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

I don't know that your situation is "extraordinary" as there are a number of speaker systems that are designed from the ground up with a sub. However, I think the general gist of the discussion has been toward the question of adding subs to stand-alone speakers.

As for a lower crossover point, keep in mind that there is rarely a brick wall at a particular frequency. If your sub accurately crosses over at 45 Hz, it is almost certainly putting out a noticeable amount of sound one octave (90 Hz) and even two octaves (180 Hz) above the crossover point. The amount depends on the respective slopes of high and low pass filters involved for the speaker and sub respectively. (And, even if a sub crossover has extremely steep slopes, that in itself introduces another set of problems to deal with.)

I sold stereos back in the days when most amps had tone controls and it was extraordinarily rare to find a customer who did not like the change in sound that came from nudging the bass and treble controls up to 1 or 2 o'clock.

Whether or not this is the effect you're experiencing is hard to tell unless you can compare your system side-by-side with a live cello (to continue the example in use) or perhaps use some RTA analysis of your room response with each configuration.

Ultimately, your only question is "are you satisfied?"